David_Wallis

Angle grinder.. big hammer and chisel

silent running

UPDATE!!!

Well there's been a lot of progress today - my mate Jonny's been over all day and we've finally got the engine out. For those who are following this thread and wondering about how to do the job, two tips spring to mind straight off: it's a two-man job, and it's much easier outdoors rather than in the garage - you need plenty of room to get the car up and down on jacks and stands, wheel the crane in and out etc. Luckily the weather held out just long enough to get the job done! The main problem we hit upon which hadn't been anticipated was that we couldn't get the lump balanced right on its straps when we pulled it up. Trying to pull it forward then up wasn't too easy, although I bet it's a damn sight easier than putting it back in will be! Even though I thought I'd released the clutch fork, the clutch bearing pulled it up and out along with the block - a bit of swearing and levering with a screwdriver eventually got it off. Anyway, we got the engine lifted totally on the wonk and even once we got it level by running an extra lifting chain down to the turbo, it was still too low in the engine bay to get over the slam panel cross member. The gearbox just sat down on the engine subframe so that was OK - it didn't drop out and the jack under it wasn't really needed.

Didn't fancy taking off the slam panel cross member, when we seemed to be so near to just 'hopping' the engine over it and out, so we tried all sorts. In the end we took the wheels off, slammed the front end right down to the ground with a jack under each side (brake discs a couple of inches off the deck!), then found that we still needed a few inches clearance under the sump. At this stage I wasn't about to climb in and mess about with that. Took the headers off which made things a bit easier to tackle. Finally, we kind of waggled the crane back and used brute strength with one of us on each side to just lift the thing over the cross member, pull the crane away from the car, then let it take the strain off us again. SUCCESS! I'm well pleased, this is the first time I've taken an engine out of any car, although we had a crack at Jonny's 205 (1.6 to 1.9 conversion), we needed expert help in the end. But this time it all went well, helped by good weather, plenty of tea, taking our time, normal workshop tools and a lot of curse words.

silent running

Car rolled out into the open, top of engine a bit tidier:



Much more room to work with rad removed - fairly simple to do if you can get under the front of the car:



Garage now converted into workshop/parts warehouse rather than car storage facility:



Jonny finally managed to get the aircon compressor off while I was tackling the gearbox bolts and engine mounts underneath the car:



Downpipe totally removed: highly recommended!



Starter motor and clutch pivot pin out, this was the last stage before final checks that clearance was OK and we were ready to lift:



Engine crane taking the strain:



Oops!



Stuck trying to get the lump over the slam panel, headers about to come off to try and help things along:



Mission accomplished! Front end right down (note lack of wheels) to try and get the slam panel as low as possible - it worked, just:



We dropped it down onto a pallet to remove the clutch and flywheel, then bolted up the engine stand mounting arm using the gearbox studs and bolts:



Much more roomy!



Engine mounted on stand:



Ready for stripdown!

stoneface

iTrader: (6)

Did you jack the box up as far as possible-makes things a lot easier.
Also if you have a strap around each head and lift from these it would be more balanced- When you put back in fit inlet manifold and lower from that, also keep length of strap shorter so you can lift higher.
Lucky you didn't have to remove slam panel because its a weld on panel
What are your plans now?

debbiesonic

iTrader: (7)

Well done, It seems like you had a fun day of it, but at least you got there in the end. First time is always the hardest, next time you will do it in half the time.
Just for reference, when we do an engine swop on stages, its out and in, in a little over 3 hours, something to aim for lol.

bpi

Removing the 2 lower bell housing studs from the engine block (the long ones) make it a much easier job to get the engine in and out. It means the engine dosent have to come as far forward before detaching completely from the gear box, so you can lift the engine up sooner rather than clearance issues with sub frame and sump.
Cheers Ben

silent running

I have to say I totally agree with every one of those last three comments.

We got muddled and thought the jack under the gearbox was to stop it dropping on the floor, not to get it angled upwards, which would have made things much easier! We tried getting something round each head evenly, but only had a short chain and a long strap! Will have to do better next time. Inlet manifold will be used to drop it back in.

I reckon with about three evenings prep work removing wiring/pipes/ancillaries/fluids, plus a day on the actual engine lift, it took about 2 full days. But then first time I took a turbo out it was a weekend's work. Now I can do that in an hour or two.

When we looked at the gearbox mounting bolts, it was a surprise to find two studs on the bottom rather than bolts. We did actually go up to a local expert (who fitted my API gearbox last year for me) to check whether these had to be wound out or could be left. In the end we left them, but now I think I might take them out next time.

silent running

Hmmm...flywheel's off, so how do I now lock the crankshaft in position so I can undo the pulley bolt?

Welloilbeefhooked

iTrader: (3)

When I did my cambelt it was a pain to get this off with the car in gear and hand brake on. I would imagine you are going to get a load of "take it off before you remove the engine" or "jam the flywheel".

I know it doesn't help much.

I used a bloody long bar and had to whack it with a larger hammer to shock it loose!!

Wayne.

debbiesonic

iTrader: (7)

air impact wrench.

silent running

Yes if I had an impact wrench that would do it. I take it there are no holes I'm supposed to poke a screwdriver through in the pulley that will lock it?

debbiesonic

iTrader: (7)

Put two of the flywheel bolts back into the crank nearly all the way, use a good solid pry bar or similar inbetween the bolts to lock the crank.

silent running

I missed that last tip! In the end I bit the bullet and unpacked the engine crane again, lifted the lump off the stand (lifted by putting the strapping through under the water crossover pipe on top of the block), fixed the flywheel back on, jammed it on the ring gear, and cracked the pulley bolt off with some Plusgas, a 22m socket, a 2 foot torque wrench and a bloody great whack from a mallet. Then took the flywheel back off, mounted it all back on the stand and packed up the crane. Here are the day's events:

Plugs seem OK. Number 2 is a bit oily, but apart from that, OK:



Look like early WRX heads from the square plug hole shape. So glad I paid for 'STi 5 heads' from the crooked engine builders who put this lump together, when I knew nothing about Impreza engines:



Back of TD05-16G turbo, showing the turbine side and the five nuts that hold the turbo/up-pipe/block mount assembly together:



Can anyone help to identify these in more detail for me? This is the offside (rh) head.



Cam pulley covers off but centre cover still on, under the crank pulley, which needs to be locked before the nut can be loosened:



Crank pulley off at last! Tensioner looks brand new, which is nice:



Close up of the central belt/pulley section. It's really starting to look like it'll be ready for stripping soon. Still need to get a few pipes off plus the sump, but apart from that it's been a good day's work:

Welloilbeefhooked

iTrader: (3)

I know you probably didn't know this at the time, but the phase 1 and 1.5 manifolds would not have fitted the version 5 heads anyway. They are earlier than the ones on my WRX. If they work though I wouldn't worry.

Look like 96 heads, but could be STI though.

Wayne.

silent running

Yes that's the problem, at the time I thought all heads were interchangeable. Now of course I know that my MY98/Phase 1.5 inlet manifold could not fit anything later than v4. I'll take them off and have a closer look. They've got serial numbers stamped onto them, the right hand one has 181011 and the left hand one 302103. The two block halves are closer; 752116 and 751251 on either side of the crankcase joint at the bellhousing edge. Also the RH block has what looks like 921 B stamped in close to the EJ20 mark, on the LH block half, further round the bellhousing it has 187703. Maybe they all mean something, maybe they don't?

debbiesonic

iTrader: (7)

You're flying now! But slapped wrist for putting that poor cross over pipe under so much strain, lol, it's only thin cast, don't do it again.

Keep at it, you will get there.

Welloilbeefhooked

iTrader: (3)

Just a thought. When I did my cambelt I had a small plate/cover that goes over the crank sprocket to stop the belt moving when putting it all back together. Left it on when I did the belt swap.

Was there on on yours? Just curious as I dont think it matters once the belt is on.

Wayne.

silent running

Don't think so. What's in the last picture is what I found when I pulled the main central cover off.

QUESTION:
What's generally considered a 'must do' job when rebuilding an engine, i.e. cheap enough, or important enough that you shouldn't avoid buying a new part and fitting it: Do ALL the gaskets need renewing? I heard that the head bolts can be reused? Water pump? Oil pump? Modine oil cooler? Obviously things like fuel and oil filters.

Last night's work went fairly well. Luckily the March issue of Japanese Performance with the engine stripdown walkthrough had arrived yesterday morning, and it made a lot of sense, especially where it showed using the cambelt doubled over and held with mole grips to lock the cam pulleys when cracking their bolts. So anyway, cambelt's off, idler/crank/cam pulleys are off, RH head is now off (head bolts weren't too bad with a long torque wrench and normal 12-sided 14mm socket).

Just off now to tackle the LH head, water pump/oil pump/modine/sump...

silent running

More pics to come tomorrow, but I've now got in as far as the oil pump and dismantled that partially. Heads are both off. I've basically got just the short block sitting in front of me now. The cambelt cog on the front of the crankshaft was a tough one to get off, but Plusgas, a pry bar and my trusty mallet did the job in the end. Remembered to catch the Woodruff key just as the cog popped off!

So tomorrow I'll be taking the back cover off the oil pump to see if there's any debris in the teeth of the pump, plus check if they still measure up right. Oil pressure, although within spec, has never been as high as I'd like at idle. The relief valve plunger was stuck in the tube with fine swarf and was gritty when I pulled it out. I'm pretty sure this was a result of the big end failure, as pressure only started dropping a while after the engine started rattling.

I'll also be turning the block over and removing the modine oil cooler and sump.

Welloilbeefhooked

iTrader: (3)

Whenever I have rebuilt an engine due to failure or wear, I have always fitted a new oil pump, or at least the gears if its that type.

I also reused gaskets (except head gaskets) and head bolts unless someone or a manual says replace them. I find that a little sealer on the gaskets is enough.

The problem with the above is that non of the engines were forced induction or above 150hp.

I would be inclined to reuse the water pump and the cambelt tensioner (which can be checked visually).

Wayne.

silent running

The tensioner looks fine to me. The water pump also looks fine. In my non-expert opinion that is. It's just the oil pump I've got the question mark over - whether to strip it and mod it myself or pay a big name £150 for the same job. I mean, what can be worn in the oil pump apart from the actual gears that go round and do the pumping?

Welloilbeefhooked

iTrader: (3)

Normally the pump gears should be within certain specs. It used to be a feeler guage job to check the tolerances. Not sure if there is any info on here that may help. I would loathe to spend £150 if it was just a matter of checking and then modding the pump myself.

Having a look on the fourms now for you,

Wayne.

Welloilbeefhooked

iTrader: (3)

Oil pump info and clearances

Whats the Differance Between A STI and WRX OIL PUMP! - Built Motor Discussion - NASIOC

Welloilbeefhooked

iTrader: (3)

And shimming the pump? Not sure what people think about this. Is this the mod you were thinking about?

Cross-drilling our crankshafts? - Built Motor Discussion - NASIOC half way down.

silent running

Yes. I was looking at one of the US websites where they seem much more willing to get technical and try stuff out for themselves (vs. SN where the answer to most questions is 'pay someone else to do it if you don't already know how'... LOL)

Anyway, photos are now coming up. I am very reluctant to spend £150+ on a new pump when my rotors seem to be easily in spec according to my feeler gauges. The only issue I can see is I'd now need new seals and do something about the plunger. The problem is that there seems to be no consensus on what the actual mod is and a lot of the people who may well know have a vested interest in selling 'modded' pumps. Here's what I've gleaned so far:
Shim the spring to raise relief valve opening pressure.
Don't shim the spring because more pressure is not needed/bad.
Fit a plain plunger to avoid sticking.
Don't fit a plain plunger and keep with the original design because plain ones stick.
Replace oil pump as a matter of course on every bottom end build.
Check and rebuild your existing pump to spec rather than buy a new one.
Hone all the oil passageways.
Reuse the existing plunger and use a 1200 grit wet'n'dry to just take the sharp edges off it.

This lack of clarity makes me think it would be a total waste of money to buy a brand new pump just so I can have the benefit of some 'mod' which appears to vary from one supplier to another, and whatever the mod(s) may or may not be, it certainly isn't worth paying £150 to buy a new pump outright.

On a more cheerful note, I have now acquired a closed deck block to use as the base for my project - hopefully I can use the crank out of it as it was supposedly only a head gasket failure and then the whole engine was replaced for something else.

My own v4 WRX block is ready to be split this weekend. I can still see the cross-hatching in the cylinders from when it was honed last time, 15k miles ago IIRC. Weirdly though, a quick measure up reveals no cylinder even as wide as the standard 92mm, all are 91.something.

silent running

RH head draining off oil. Next time I'll make sure I get a load of cardboard down on the floor!



RH cylinders revealed (nos. 1 and 3):



LH head about to come off. Cam pulleys need removing first, then three caps on each cam, then a little knock on the end of the cam will pop it out, revealing six 14mm head bolts. Cracked them with a long torque wrench. You can see my extension bar still on one, top right.



LH cylinders see the light of day. One of them, number 2 IIRC, seemed like it had had a partial gasket failure at the bottom. The cylinder was a little grimy.



RH head off, combustion chambers shown:



Front of block with oil and water pumps removed completely:



Oil pump stripped down. The relief valve tube was quite 'sticky' and gritty when I first opened it up. A good clean up revealed that the plunger part of the valve had been scuffing. Whether this had been going on for some time or it had just stuck fast once the rattling of the big end started, who knows? The two rotors are easily within tolerance so I'm very reluctant to buy a new pump when this one looks perfectly fine. If anything it'll just need a new plunger? The only thing that measured wrong was the spring. Its free length is a little longer than it should be, which is weird.



The closed deck block (CDB) I've got hold of with nothing worse than a head gasket failure. I'm hoping it will give me a bulletproof block to bore out to 92.5mm plus a good crank that I can just drop straight back in once I've measured it. Once I've pulled out the pistons and rods I'll see if they are worth reusing, or maybe just selling on to finance the Wiseco pistons/Eagle rods combo I've got me eye on. This CDB is noticeable heavier than the open deck of my v4 WRX block.



Any comments on what's revealed in these photographs? Signs of damage etc, that I might not notice as a non-expert?

Tim W

iTrader: (1)

If you are feeling brave and are going to re-use that pump don't forget to fill it with a suitable priming lube and when you put the cover plate back on locktight those screws in and for good measure peen the screw to the cover plate. I've seen many a loose cover cause an engine failure

Other things to look at:

Replace the Modine oil cooler (water/oil cooler between the engine and filter) once it gets bearing material in it you'll never get it properly clean.

Similarly re-using a Subaru crank after a regrind is unwise. The cross drilled oil ways are blocked off at one end with a ball bearing which is peened in place. Unless they've been removed and replaced with grubb screws for the regrind you'll never get the oil ways properly clean.

There will of course be people who say that they've never had a problem with their reground crank/re-used modine...they're the exception

I would not be surprised if the demise of your rebuilt engine was brought about by a re-used component that wasn't properly cleaned...you can never be too clean when rebuilding/assembling an engine

If you want a more sensible forum for the deep technical argument you may want to head over to bbs.22b.com

silent running

I'll have a look...

Tim W

iTrader: (1)

Oil pump, yep to make sure you don't start it dry, but use some assembly lube not low viscosity engine oil. Invest in some assembly lube regardless you should use it on all the rotating components in the engine while you're putting it back together (ie on the bearing shells before the crank goes in/rod caps go on, cams, little ends etc)

The Modine is a heat exchanger, lots of little plates with waterways running through them huge surface area in a small enclosure...ripe for traping a piece of bearing material. If the one off the CDB still has oil in it (so it hasn't got rusty!) and you can be absolutely 100% sure there's no debris in it (bearing failure or dirt) clean the outside while it's still on the block and sealed, then wash the inside through in a parts washer with a clean parafin/parts wash for a long long time...drain it the best you can and blow through with an airline. If there had been a bearing failure, don't bother...you won't get it all out!

The crank from your rattling engine will more than likely be scrap, if there is any sign of a mark regardless of how small on the bearing surface it's had it. The bearing surfaces will show signs of the grind, but they will be smooth. If you clean the surfaces of oil to inspect them spray some wd40 or similar on afterwards the acid on your skin will propagate corrosion like wildfire

Sorry if this all sounds a bit ****, but as I said you can't be too clean!

silent running

Tim that is a perfect answer - keep it coming. Don't worry about being too '****', this is the first time I've done an engine stripdown/build so stuff which seems common sense to everyone else, I may well not think of.

I'll see if I can have a look at the crank tonight and post up some pictures. Still trying to get a modine for less than the £140 that everyone I've found wants!