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I think Telboy and Leslie might have a virtual hug, lol
They might bloody NOT
Why is this thread remarkable? Because there are people who are "seemingly" intelligent who hold obviously unintelligent and backward-thinking views? Sorry but that's how my opinion has developed from living in this country longer than many here. I realise i don't have the youthful trendy outlook on things but i'll square with you, walking around places like Bradford offends me. If they want to dress as Muslims, speak their own language, live separately from other sections of society, pray in mosques and everything else that goes with it, why the hell don't they do that in an Islamic country where they can live happily under Sharia Law to their hearts content? Why does Britain need such a high Muslim population? Who is it benefitting?
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The remarkable comment was just build up to the punchline below it, personally I don't think you need to be so defensive about your views, I'd wager that amoungst the seemingly intelligent viewers of this thread a majority would agree with you.
Britishness isn't the Bradford skyline. Britishness isn't ghettos of non-white population. Britishness isn't head to toe burkhas. Britishness isn't an underclass of illegal sponging immigrants. To list a few.
You can throw all the "narrow minded" accusations at me that you want, but like millions of people in this country, i don't recognise, let alone welcome, the country we have become. Our national identity has been dissolved to the point of non-existence. And i'm totally unapologetic for saying i don't like it. This isn't a Muslim country. Why live in the UK if you're a Muslim unless you're here for professional reasons? Opportunities my arse. It's because we're a soft touch and living in the UK is a bed of roses compared to many other countries in the world. But TelBoy was never asked if that's what he wanted. Of course he wanted it, there was no need to ask, because to have ANY other view would of course be racist, nationalistic - whatever you're going to call it. Well i'll nail my flag to the pole - i preferred Britain as it was, not as it is. But don't worry, my generation will be dead soon and everybody can enjoy and thrive in the multi-racial (and eventually Muslim) country everybody apparently so desperately wants.
Thanks ole boy , will do
Are the bnp burgeoning in Sarfend now youve swelled their number ?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TelBoy
Sorry only just seen this.
I'll tell you what Britishness isn't.
Britishness isn't the Bradford skyline. Britishness isn't ghettos of non-white population. Britishness isn't head to toe burkhas. Britishness isn't an underclass of illegal sponging immigrants. To list a few.
You can throw all the "narrow minded" accusations at me that you want, but like millions of people in this country, i don't recognise, let alone welcome, the country we have become. Our national identity has been dissolved to the point of non-existence. And i'm totally unapologetic for saying i don't like it. This isn't a Muslim country. Why live in the UK if you're a Muslim unless you're here for professional reasons? Opportunities my arse. It's because we're a soft touch and living in the UK is a bed of roses compared to many other countries in the world. But TelBoy was never asked if that's what he wanted. Of course he wanted it, there was no need to ask, because to have ANY other view would of course be racist, nationalistic - whatever you're going to call it. Well i'll nail my flag to the pole - i preferred Britain as it was, not as it is. But don't worry, my generation will be dead soon and everybody can enjoy and thrive in the multi-racial (and eventually Muslim) country everybody apparently so desperately wants.
For someone who was haranguing me in an earlier thread about racism this post has an interesting symmetry.
Perhaps this will help you with a view of what Britishness is...
...Britishness is collaborating with the Muslim Turks to defeat the Spanish Armada as the Ottoman fleet held up the Spanish to enable the British to prepare for battle - a crucial intervention...
...Britishness is exploiting low paid Muslims from Yemen and India to work on ships to support the burgeoning oceanic trade with the East Indies, flourishing when the Suez Canal opened...
...Britishness is invading sovereign nations right across Africa to exploit them for their resources and cheap labour - and on handing them back to the black leadership leaving the local Asian Muslims nowhere to go but here...
...Britishness is creating the Raj to massively exploit one of the richest nations on Earth...
...and then leaving it divided on the brink of war so at least taking the responsbility of housing those in the firing line.
Our link with Muslims (as well as Hindus) is intertwined for the past five hundred years as we as a nation took advantage of poorer nations to grow our wealth and world position. A significant portion of Muslims in this country are descended from those we brought here to exploit as cheap labour. A big chunk are here because we abandoned them in what they thought was their own country.
But that is a sideshow, to me Britishness is tolerance, inclusiveness, consciousness, balance, acceptance, advancement, research, leadership, power (as opposed to force).
And to be quite clear, this is not a youthful trendy view as I am probably one of the oldest members on Snet.
__________________
Cast your fly carefully, I spook easily!
for those coming here or already here from other nations and religions for me;
Britishness is accepting the laws and embrasing the british cluture (the good and decent bits), learning and speaking the language, intergating and contributing to the society and living in peace and harmony.
Still, what do I know, i am only in my 40's
__________________ The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing - A. Einstein
Last edited by Paul Habgood; 26 October 2009 at 22:48.
I understand there is a shortage of Mosques in this country maybe we should build a few more as theres only a thousand already ! someone mentioned to me that as we speak a Christian church graveyard is being dug up in manchester as we speak to be replaced by a New Mosque ! Whats the chance of us building a few church's in some muslim countries !lol http://www.****france.com/topic/3520...html&replies=3
Trout, i appreciate your history lessons, i really do. It's an angle trotted out frequently.
Let's be clear. I don't have a problem with Muslims per se. I think Islam is misguided at best, but there are nearly 1.5 billion people on this planet who would choose to take issue with me on that. Maybe i'm right, maybe i'm wrong - i'll let you know when i'm dead.
What i DO take issue with, if it isn't abundantly clear, is the Islamification of Great Britain. Our history does NOT, in my opinion, put the onus on British people to accomodate a Muslim way of life on these shores. Sure, be proud, be Muslim, but DO IT IN A MUSLIM COUNTRY!!!
I'll ask again, what does Bradford, for example, add to the Britishness of Britain? Tell me. Because i'm obviously so stupid that the explanation is evading me. I'm here to listen.
And amazingly influential for such a tiny minority wouldnt you agree? (and where did that figure come from BTW?)
Well they are more vocal than other religions that is for sure, but also the media love to pick up on anything Muslim and hence I think our perception of them is that they are more vocal and influential than they really are.
The figure is an adjusted figure from the census in 2001 and ineteretsingly is the same figure as quoted by the Muslim Council of Britain.
For someone who was haranguing me in an earlier thread about racism this post has an interesting symmetry.
Perhaps this will help you with a view of what Britishness is...
...Britishness is collaborating with the Muslim Turks to defeat the Spanish Armada as the Ottoman fleet held up the Spanish to enable the British to prepare for battle - a crucial intervention...
...Britishness is exploiting low paid Muslims from Yemen and India to work on ships to support the burgeoning oceanic trade with the East Indies, flourishing when the Suez Canal opened...
...Britishness is invading sovereign nations right across Africa to exploit them for their resources and cheap labour - and on handing them back to the black leadership leaving the local Asian Muslims nowhere to go but here...
...Britishness is creating the Raj to massively exploit one of the richest nations on Earth...
...and then leaving it divided on the brink of war so at least taking the responsbility of housing those in the firing line.
Our link with Muslims (as well as Hindus) is intertwined for the past five hundred years as we as a nation took advantage of poorer nations to grow our wealth and world position. A significant portion of Muslims in this country are descended from those we brought here to exploit as cheap labour. A big chunk are here because we abandoned them in what they thought was their own country.
But that is a sideshow, to me Britishness is tolerance, inclusiveness, consciousness, balance, acceptance, advancement, research, leadership, power (as opposed to force).
And to be quite clear, this is not a youthful trendy view as I am probably one of the oldest members on Snet.
Funny, and there was me thinking that immigration has only become a problem since Labour came to power and opened the flood gates. 500 years you say? Wow I didn't see mosques and large numbers of ethnic minorities or eastern europeans in the supermarket doing their shopping en masse when I was a kid in the seventies and eighties.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bravo2zero_sps
Funny, and there was me thinking that immigration has only become a problem since Labour came to power and opened the flood gates. 500 years you say? Wow I didn't see mosques and large numbers of ethnic minorities or eastern europeans in the supermarket doing their shopping en masse when I was a kid in the seventies and eighties.
I think the first mosque built in this country was to support a large community (over 60,000) Muslims who came here as a result of our oceanic trade.
In 1860. So I guess you might have missed it as that may have been before your time.
All I am suggesting is at least get your facts aligned to our history - this is not a new problem, it is a situation that was created by our grandfathers grandfathers and by part of our history is part of what defines this country today.
__________________
Cast your fly carefully, I spook easily!
Just for balance i cant see a single mosque from where im sitting minerted or otherwise
There wasn't a mosque in the centre of Tunbridge Wells where I grew up as a kid but there is now. They seem to pop up just about anywhere and especially strange when its somewhere such as Tunbridge Wells that isn't exactly known for its large Muslim community. But then I guess it was handy for Abu Hamza to pop into when he was doing his 'terrorist training camps' in Tunbridge Wells at an old monastery in the late 90s
Quote:
Evidence collected by the American agencies shows that, as early as 1997, Hamza was organising terror camps in the Brecon Beacons, at an old monastery in Tunbridge Wells, Kent, and in Scotland, suggesting that he ran a far more extensive training network than has been officially acknowledged until now. “Transcripts of interviews conducted with suspected al-Qaeda terrorists held by America in Guantánamo Bay reveal that the British ex-soldiers, some of whom fought in Bosnia, were recruited to train about 10 of Hamza’s followers at the Brecon Beacons camp for three weeks in 1998. The former troops taught them to strip and clean weapons and gave them endurance training and lessons in surveillance techniques. The training camps in Tunbridge Wells, at which no ex-soldiers were present, were held in 1997 and 1998 and were attended by about 30 people who were trained to use AK47 rifles, hand guns and a mock rocket launcher.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TelBoy
Trout, i appreciate your history lessons, i really do. It's an angle trotted out frequently.
Let's be clear. I don't have a problem with Muslims per se. I think Islam is misguided at best, but there are nearly 1.5 billion people on this planet who would choose to take issue with me on that. Maybe i'm right, maybe i'm wrong - i'll let you know when i'm dead.
What i DO take issue with, if it isn't abundantly clear, is the Islamification of Great Britain. Our history does NOT, in my opinion, put the onus on British people to accomodate a Muslim way of life on these shores. Sure, be proud, be Muslim, but DO IT IN A MUSLIM COUNTRY!!!
I'll ask again, what does Bradford, for example, add to the Britishness of Britain? Tell me. Because i'm obviously so stupid that the explanation is evading me. I'm here to listen.
The point of my post is neither to justify nor condemn the Muslim presence in Britain.
My point was to give at least some context to the argument - British History and Muslim History is intertwined because our British ancestors made it so. It is not simply a modern problem. That is not to say there are not significant modern problems from this heritage - but it is a British heritage that made it so.
Asking what Bradford adds to Britishness is like saying what to Irish pubs add to Britishness, or croissants, or American TV programs. All these things surely dilute Britishness as they are not British by what I perceive as your definition, and I would suggest they are far more pervasive than any form of Muslim dimension. Although accepting that the number one hot meal in the UK is Chicken Tikka Masala and that most curry houses are run by Pakistanis or Bangaldeshis. But I don't think anyone would suggest this was forced on us.
So, should the hundreds of thousands of Irish go home, or the million Indians, or should all Catholics be sent packing to Italy?
Just wondering how you draw the line?
__________________
Cast your fly carefully, I spook easily!
I think the first mosque built in this country was to support a large community (over 60,000) Muslims who came here as a result of our oceanic trade.
In 1860. So I guess you might have missed it as that may have been before your time.
All I am suggesting is at least get your facts aligned to our history - this is not a new problem, it is a situation that was created by our grandfathers grandfathers and by part of our history is part of what defines this country today.
Of course there is no doubting what you are saying is correct and yes I was being deliberately flippant but there is a huge difference between immigration that has in comparison been a trickle over centuries originating from British rule abroad and the massive increase in immigration over the last decade.
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And as far as I know - as the point was being specifically made regarding the Muslim population - the last mass migration of Muslims to the UK was in the 1970s. There has not been a mass migration since then and I also believe that around half the Muslims who live here were born here.
As I said above - as far as immigration is concerned - the Muslim issue is by far and away not a modern issue.
Mass, European immigration may well be, particularly Eastern Europeans, some of whom may be 'white muslims' but they are not the ones taking over central Bradford
__________________
Cast your fly carefully, I spook easily!
That of course, is the million dollar question, and the reason why the problem (for whom it IS a problem) can never be debated properly. Short of a forced repatriation, there's nothing we can do now. We invited them over, they're now British by birth and there's precious little i, or more militant opposers such as the BNP, can do about it. So in effect i'm just ranting.
But Trout, please don't be obtuse about this. If it isn't obvious to you how Catholics in some suburban town going about their daily business isn't totally different to the likes of central Leicester and all that goes with it, then we're wasting our time. Westernisation and integration make skin colour irrelevant. But many Muslim communities in the UK are neither Westernised nor integrated, and that's just the way they like it. In which case i'd have little hesitation in driving them to the airport myself.
As a practising Muslim born and raised here, I understand completely where a lot of people are coming from i.e no more or send 'em back.
When my parents came here they agreed and are obligated to follow the rules of this country.
There only two circumstances in which me and my family, would leave this country, that we all have lived and worked in happily for so many years, these are:
1) If the rulers of the country asked us to leave
2) If we were restricted from practising our faith
With true belief in your heart as a Muslim you know Allah(azu wa jal) is the sustainer, the provider.
IMO Saeed Warsi did more damage to muslim community here in Britain than Nick Griffin
As a practising Muslim born and raised here, I understand completely where a lot of people are coming from i.e no more or send 'em back.
When my parents came here they agreed and are obligated to follow the rules of this country.
There only two circumstances in which me and my family, would leave this country, that we all have lived and worked in happily for so many years, these are:
1) If the rulers of the country asked us to leave
2) If we were restricted from practising our faith
With true belief in your heart as a Muslim you know Allah(azu wa jal) is the sustainer, the provider.
IMO Saeed Warsi did more damage to muslim community here in Britain than Nick Griffin
I can see no way that any fair minded person could take issue with your and your family's attitude towards your responsibilities or with your beliefs.
I am sure you can well understand our own feelings with regard to keeping our own country as we wish and to maintain our own culture and traditions. There is no reason why that should exclude your presence here or prevent you from following your faith.
What is worrying of course is the wish by extremists to convert this country to Islam and Sharia law. I don't think you can blame us for wishing to resist such an action and I think you will understand that.
We all have a right to have our own country with our own laws and traditions. I have visited the Middle East many times and like you we always took care to fit in with the traditions of those countries at the time. Our visits were always enjoyable.
Extremism is always an enemy wherever you live. If we can each overcome the effects of that and accept that we all have a right to live in our own style without interference from other factions, then we would all profit and the world would be a far better place.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TelBoy
That of course, is the million dollar question, and the reason why the problem (for whom it IS a problem) can never be debated properly. Short of a forced repatriation, there's nothing we can do now. We invited them over, they're now British by birth and there's precious little i, or more militant opposers such as the BNP, can do about it. So in effect i'm just ranting.
But Trout, please don't be obtuse about this. If it isn't obvious to you how Catholics in some suburban town going about their daily business isn't totally different to the likes of central Leicester and all that goes with it, then we're wasting our time. Westernisation and integration make skin colour irrelevant. But many Muslim communities in the UK are neither Westernised nor integrated, and that's just the way they like it. In which case i'd have little hesitation in driving them to the airport myself.
If I may expand on your point. For some communities it is no different to how Catholics go about their business, or protestants.
Didn't you notice fifty years of hurt as you were growing up in Northern Ireland?
Have you ever been to Glasgow - possible the most sectarian place I have visited including Belfast - they just had less bombs.
Or have you been to Edinburgh during an Orange march.
There are barriers right across our society and my point is how do you choose which one to rant over?
The Muslim history in this country is almost as long as the separation of the churches. Ranting IMHO is just as divisive as Muslims not integrating; Orange marches, roadside bombs...
...they all come from the same source albeit expressed very differently. The one thing they all have in common is that the British Nation we inherited created each and every one of these challenges over a very long time.
To suggest, as some have, that these are New Labour issues either reflects a poster whose whole political life has been under Blairs rule; or one that eschews history entirely.
__________________
Cast your fly carefully, I spook easily!
We could argue this all day. Women in burkhas, hijabs, nikabs and whatever other combination there is, men in their thobes, speaking Arabic, going to the mosque five times a day, shunning other communities - THAT is not comparable to anything you've mentioned, Trout. Perhaps you need to be Caucasian to see the stark difference, i don't know, but to me it's night and day. And i don't believe i've "inherited" that way of life at all. Not in the slightest. It's alien to me, and to millions of other British people too.
