lizzard

After reading the many threads on these devices, which one would be recommended above the other. The Dawes is by far the cheaper of the two however the TurboXS may be smoother in its power with less spiking. Just my opinion from what I have gathered,but I may be wrong!!
John Banks, any help in this area. You seem to have extensive knowledge about anything turbo

ScoobyJawa

I've got the Dawes fitted with a 1.5mm drilled out bleed and there's no spiking on that - MY99 running just above 15Psi according to PE (1.1bar????)

john banks

TXS is a ball-spring with a bleed after it. You can get exactly the same function by drilling a bleed hole as above or fitting a £7 bleed valve after the Dawes and save yourself a packet.

14.5PSI = 1.0 bar, 15 = 1.03.

However, if you are running this in the midrange it will be running just as much peak power as a car like mine set to 18 PSI in the midrange as it is flow/actuator limited at the top end. So a lower fuel cut is not too much of a hardship really - just that you don't get as much midrange out as you could.

At the flywheel my car showed more peak power running "1.2 bar" than a Superchipped car running "1.7 bar" on the RR. Understandably he murdered me on torque. He did have more boost high up probably because my actuator is soft. For peak power the boost at peak power is important not what it makes in the midrange.

ScoobyJawa

John,

Ok my MY99 with Dawes is set at just over 15 psi according to the select monitor, the gauge is reading around 1.1 or just under.

You think that on a standard car eg no PPP ecu that the 1.5mm bleed and 16PSi is the way to go.......

How about running 16.5 or 17 PSi? I work them to be 1.1385 and 1.173 bar respectively. If the fuel cut is at 1.25 then that still gives quite a margin for error?

Do you think these are safe to run or would you say to stick at 16? PE said my car was running rich and at about 10% co2??

Cheers, neil.

T-uk

john,

I do not think it is fair to compare flywheel figures with Dave's car,as you asked for your car to be revved up to 6500rpm where as Dave did not,so his car was shut down at peak wheel power,(as Star usually do).my car has been run twice at Star,both times I had 139@ wheels but at the second run I asked for my car to be revved past peak wheel power to 6500rpm and gained almost 20bhp at flywheel.

john banks

I would put it up to fuel cut and turn it back a bit

Not subtle, but at 10% CO I'm not too worried. Asbestos suit at the ready.

john banks

I know you like your PAWs John I've never been fair. I like the biggest number

Dave's 11bhp PAW advantage will be due to a little bit extra boost at 5000-6000 no doubt. My peak flywheel power was at 6000rpm even though my car was taken up to 6600rpm.

I think if I tweak the actuator the only difference will be in exhausts and what metal our ***** are made of


[Edited by john banks - 1/23/2002 3:09:43 PM]

T-uk

we all like the bigger figures and thats why I always ask for my car to be revved up to 6500rpm,to gain that bit extra too ,trouble is,there are so many questions on rolling road accuracy,that it does not help when some cars get revved higher over PAW's peak,others get the intercooler fan and others do not,thats why I always try and see the graphs like powerstations.IMHO everey top mounted car should be getting air blown at it not just the ones who asked,to have a car with a top mount doing 120mph with only a front fan is fcukin risky.

If I want to compare my car to another at a r/r day I look at the PAW and the held torque curve,if I'm in the pub it's flywheel .

I'm not having a go,you know I am very impressed with your car,it's the first PPP car I've been in that I have felt was worth the 1700£ but you have taken the time to sort out the boost,one of the PPP cars I have been in were only hitting 15psi and went like any other standard scoob,also we both know of the PPP car with standard figures at Star that you told me about.

anyway hopefully our next comparison will be round Knockhill

john banks

You'll be dead m8. At least on the straight. Unless you have modded yours by then. By then I should have >170 PAW @ Star no worries.

[Edited by john banks - 1/23/2002 4:28:01 PM]

Dave Brown

Hi John....and John

Seen my name mentioned, so thought I'd better reply.

My graph showed an incredible spike of 1.7bar at 3,250rpm where it produced its max torque.Which made for interesting driving especially in 4th & 5th gears (like a large kick up the ***) but you could feel the drop-off at above 5000 where the boost was dropping down to 1.1-1.2 bar.

I have now disconnected my OE boost solenoid valve and running just the bleed valve off the actuator pipe.The result is a much smoother feeling car with less surging under hard acceleration.It is also a lot quicker in the lower gears and pulls hard right up to 7000rpm.

I'm hoping to get back to star soon for another run to compare graphs and looking forward to Crail to see if my times have improved.

I drove WRXSteve's dawes equipped car on Saturday and was very impressed , now I see why everyone is raving about them.

Dave

WREXY

Are these cars getting dyno'd with the bonnet up or down? It's just that in members gallery, the cars are pictured with their bonnets closed on the dyno. In OZ all cars are dyno'd with their bonnets up, to get all the air from the fans in to the engine bay.

Cheers,

Wrexy

Dave Brown

Also meant to mention at the previous Star RR day I was running 1.3bar & my CO. was 11%.Forgot to ask for the check this time

Did both of you's get the intercooler fan put on for your runs??

He ran mine the first time with no fan the smoke didnt look too healthy.I wasnt impressed & asked him to run it again with fan on.

Dave

Dave Brown

Wrexy

They are dynoed with the bonnet up.One large fan in front of the car & another fan with a hose into the top mount intercooler.

Dave

john banks

Hi Dave! I would never dare run the sort of boost you run in the midrange. Have you checked the charge temps?

Getting rid of the solenoid when running not far off double the factory level of boost sounds like a good idea

I was going to say you might get incredible results with the Dawes in terms of spool up, but then again, I don't expect your wastegate diaphragm actually ever sees any boost you bleed so much off!

I would like my boost curve to just hang on a bit longer and then I will stop there.

Is it possible Dave that your car is retarding so much in the midrange that you might do better by running a bit lower boost?

Surely there is a point where you have too much boost and so much hot air and ignition retard with a TD04 and original ECU it is over the top of any efficiency curve you could dream of?

Sam Elassar

i am really sorry to disappoint you guys but if two cars same make and model the one with the most PAW is the fastest period.

power at the fly wheel is could be due to the transmission loses for one. the other thing is that temp probe that jim fits the higher the temp the more power the fly wheel the computer is going to give you, so if you rev the car higher not only you will get a more power at the fly wheel due the extra revs but also because the engine temps would have been higher. it is just a theory but try to compare the temps of the cars that ran higher revs?? could be wrong but this is how the rollers work anyway.

my car was still producing power at the wheel when jim paniced and lifted off at 7500revs that is just before the rev limiter
so next time i will let him lift off when he get the rev limiter that will give an extra few BHP


sam

WREXY

Cheers Dave.

john banks

If I can tighten my actuator a bit I hope to be gunning for Dave next time for PAW unless he does something to his Unless his drainpipe exhaust gives him an advantage It sounds excellent Dave.

john banks

Dave is the STi intercooler a big improvement? Just replaces the original one? I'm sure they are available fairly cheaply. Nice thought is that there is no need for a remap and I might get a bit more out of the TD04. I guess you were thinking the same?

Any advice welcome.

lizzard

Thanks for all the info guys!! John you said:

"However, if you are running this in the midrange it will be running just as much peak power as a car like mine set to 18 PSI in the midrange as it is flow/actuator limited at the top end. So a lower fuel cut is not too much of a hardship really - just that you don't get as much midrange out as you could."

Do you mean 14.5-15psi with a "Turbo XS" setup will be like running a car set to 18psi with a "dawes device"
Also which would be better drilling a 1.5mm hole or getting an additional bleed.
My car is totally stock at this time here in Trinidad, and I am looking for a bit more power without cooking the motor or breaking the piggy bank too much I am not sure which is the better of the two devices. Which would you recommend?
Thanks

john banks

Go for the cheapest. It is not an STi or Jap import designed for 100RON is it? What octane fuel do you have there - otherwise advise caution.

Basically either will give you excellent results.

On a small turbo such as the UK cars TD04 the setting in the midrange makes little/no difference to the top end as it is flow/actuator limited is all I am saying about peak power.

lizzard

No John its a straight Turbo WRX MY00 from England, imported by a local agency here in Trinidad.
Which would you recommend in terms of the bleed. Drill the bleed hole to 1.5 mm or buy that separate bleed that you were talking about.
I have purchased an Autometer boost and air / fuel gauge in order to set it up.
The gas in Trinidad is Unleaded Premium (Super) however the RON is probably really only 96-97 or so.
How much boost do you think I should start off with?
Cheers

john banks

1.5mm hole is best.

I would start with 15PSI and see what you think. Then you could go up to about 1 PSI below fuel cut - I guess about 16PSI.

You say MY00 WRX - do you mean the old shape?

If it is the new shape there are concerns about the up-pipe cat and MBCs - see the Dawes FAQ post I made.

Dave Brown

John

I am running sensible boost now, found it easier to set up & maintain a boost setting without the solenoid.Just for the record though, I've been running 1.7 bar for 3 months, approx 5,000 miles including lots of 1/4 mile sprints and still have intact pistons :wink:

The sti intercooler seems to make a difference, the smoother/larger diameter inlet pipe is far better than the OE plastic pipe.And it looks nice when the bonnet is up .The intercooler is off an sti3 and running a twin piston dump to atmos. on the recirc pipe.(very loud).According to my RR results the HKS system on mine gave another 15lb/ft over my old magnex.

Dave

lizzard

Thanks again John. Yes the "old" shape. Not the MY02 that is being sold in the US and spoken so much about in the I-Club site in America.
Should I buy the "Super Duty Boost Controller Full Race Version"$70.00
or the "Original Super Duty Boost Controller"$35.00
Sorry for all the questions but I am new to the world of turbos as I drove a Mazda RX-7 before this one

john banks

I think the PPP also has a new intercooler pipe (not just hose) when I was looking last night. Also on another thread some late ECUs have a really crap ignition and fuel map so maybe the Prodrive ECU is like the good MY99 ones and giving me good results for little boost. Can't exactly say the PPP was worth it, but it certainly helps here and there

Go for the $35 Dawes it is fine.

GavinP

As you are in Trinidad (lucky you! - not jealous at all.. ), I would recommend you keep a VERY close eye on the intake air temperature as well.

As it is likely to be a fair bit warmer than the UK, you need to be very careful. Detonation is much more likely when the IAT is high.

Thanks

Gavin

RRH

john,
fitted the boost gauge and dawes- increased the hole to 1.5 but have not altered it otherwise. it's showing around 10psi on an autometer ultra-lite (which i'm told commonly under-read by about 1psi)- pretty much the same as without the dawes. but what a difference!
i'm not going to increase the boost until i get the AFR and EGT installed- they forgot to send me the sensor for the latter- and am taking it very easy for now!
oh, sorry to crash the thread.

simon b.

Dave Brown

John

They do replace the intercooler intake pipe as part of the PPP, you should have a nice blue silicon hose with the prodrive logo on it.

When a new car gets the PPP, they leave all the parts they have replaced in the boot.These usually end up in the dealers parts dept. (speaking from experience)

Your DIY EBC sounds interesting, you'll need to give me a demo next time you're up my way.

Dave

john banks

I got all my bits back (might want to sell the Prodrive bits later!), but until I looked I did not appreciate all the metal work as well as silicone involved.

I will show you the EBC when it is progressing more. Basically it will have the feature set of the AVC-R when done - ie RPM map of duty cycle and boost targets. It will have an option to compress the MAP sensor to raise fuel cut and it will run full closed loop PID control during spool up and held boost. The worst of it is coded and working on the car, the rest is in the details, which take a surprising amount of time.

lizzard

GavinP or John Banks, correct me if I am wrong, but all I need is a air/fuel meter to know if I am leaning the mixture too much due to excessive boost. Right?

I have purchased an Autometer boost gauge and a air /fuel gauge and will install them before any mods are done!! www.autometer.com


GavinP how do you measure the air intake temp?