Learning to Drive or recent test
17 September 2007, 11:56 AM
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Learning to Drive or recent test
I know this is probably not the right place to ask this question, but I will anyway.
I'm looking for advice from those who either are learning or have recently passed their driving test by using a driving school.
How are you advised to prepare for, say, a junction, where you need to reduce speed by braking and change gear before the junction?
The reason I am asking is that my daughter is being taught to drive and she has been told to change down whilst braking which means she is using the clutch to increase the engine speed to match the road speed with the resultant jolt due to relatively poor clutch control. I can not believe this is correct.
I'm not after the "right way" which to my mind is either braking to the required speed first, change gear, enter junction or "hazard". The second method is to heel and toe which is too advanced for learning.
I'm looking for advice from those who either are learning or have recently passed their driving test by using a driving school.
How are you advised to prepare for, say, a junction, where you need to reduce speed by braking and change gear before the junction?
The reason I am asking is that my daughter is being taught to drive and she has been told to change down whilst braking which means she is using the clutch to increase the engine speed to match the road speed with the resultant jolt due to relatively poor clutch control. I can not believe this is correct.
I'm not after the "right way" which to my mind is either braking to the required speed first, change gear, enter junction or "hazard". The second method is to heel and toe which is too advanced for learning.
18 September 2007, 05:09 PM
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Personally I was taught to slow down using the gears where appropriate and always do it in my manual motors. Have to do it in my land rover other wise braking distance are horrific!
18 September 2007, 09:29 PM
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The wheels on the bus....
Just done a "BUS" test, and they have moved the goal-posts.... I still use the gears, sod 'em.
And as stated above, reduces the pathetic braking distances to manageable....
Dunx
PM Corradoboy he's an Instructor now.... tell him Dunx sent you
And as stated above, reduces the pathetic braking distances to manageable....
Dunx
PM Corradoboy he's an Instructor now.... tell him Dunx sent you
19 September 2007, 01:03 PM
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It is all MSM (Mirror, Signal Maneuver).
You can break maneuver down into the following:
P = Position
S = Speed
L = Look
Put the two together and you get:
Mirror
Signal
Position
Speed
Look
Now, all of this needs to be done in the correct order, without rushing. Things that effect the time required such as road conditions, weather, traffic, visibility etc should all be assessed in good time.
Turning Left.
Mirrors:
(centre then left)
Signal:
(left signal, consider arm signal)
Position:
(towards the left hand side of the lane, but not to close to the kerb)
Speed:
(Come off the gas and brake softly, at the same time select the appropriate gear. No need to come down the box)
Look:
(Obvious really, but look where you are going, look for pedestrians stepping out into the road you are turning onto, look up the road because hands follow eyes!)
You can break maneuver down into the following:
P = Position
S = Speed
L = Look
Put the two together and you get:
Mirror
Signal
Position
Speed
Look
Now, all of this needs to be done in the correct order, without rushing. Things that effect the time required such as road conditions, weather, traffic, visibility etc should all be assessed in good time.
Turning Left.
Mirrors:
(centre then left)
Signal:
(left signal, consider arm signal)
Position:
(towards the left hand side of the lane, but not to close to the kerb)
Speed:
(Come off the gas and brake softly, at the same time select the appropriate gear. No need to come down the box)
Look:
(Obvious really, but look where you are going, look for pedestrians stepping out into the road you are turning onto, look up the road because hands follow eyes!)
20 September 2007, 09:12 AM
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The Institute of Advanced Motorists and Roadcraft way of doing it is to avoid overlapping the gear change and braking. So, you'd get all your braking done for the maneuver, then block change into the appropriate gear, usually second and then balance the throttle through the turn.
Roadcraft allows a little overlap but the IAM don't.
Of course, the most important thing is to be in control and ensure that those around know what you are/plan to do and that you can see what all the other road users (including pedestrians) are doing (the information phase).
Steve
Roadcraft allows a little overlap but the IAM don't.
Of course, the most important thing is to be in control and ensure that those around know what you are/plan to do and that you can see what all the other road users (including pedestrians) are doing (the information phase).
Steve
20 September 2007, 11:25 AM
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To be honest i think its bifferent for different types of car. Driving the impreza day to day, i never drop the box to slow down..
My land rover, well every junction etc i drop down the gears.. At 60 mph im topped out in fourth and overdive.. If i use my brakes to take me down to 15 mph for the junction i would have stalled out, I 'NEED' to change down hehe. Drum brakes all round moves the goal post's a bit trust me
My land rover, well every junction etc i drop down the gears.. At 60 mph im topped out in fourth and overdive.. If i use my brakes to take me down to 15 mph for the junction i would have stalled out, I 'NEED' to change down hehe. Drum brakes all round moves the goal post's a bit trust me
20 September 2007, 01:22 PM
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i have always been told to go through the gears wen braking but i never did and it turns out i was right as the bloke from re motorsport told me shouldnt coz it wears out the clutch and can damage the gear box....brakes are for breaking not gearbox
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21 September 2007, 06:28 AM
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Slowing down with the engine is definitely the safest way to stop in bad weather condition, i.e. wet or snowy. 
You don't have to do that, but you must know how to, requiring that makes sense to me.
You don't have to do that, but you must know how to, requiring that makes sense to me.
21 September 2007, 10:24 PM
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I always used to use the gears first and brakes second till someone pointed out that it was cheaper to replace brake pads and discs than engine and transmission components - so I now use the brakes more
21 September 2007, 10:38 PM
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I've a feeling that's what my IAM instructor said too - but I'm not sure I agree it's a good idea. Brakes inherently wear out as you use them, but if you're using engine braking, what slows you down is the pistons using energy to compress air.
You know, like they're always doing - just without the 'bang' bit.
As for the gearbox, is it really wearing out during the time you spend using the engine to brake any more than it is during the time you're using the engine for propulsion? I can't see any reason at all why it should.
You know, like they're always doing - just without the 'bang' bit.
As for the gearbox, is it really wearing out during the time you spend using the engine to brake any more than it is during the time you're using the engine for propulsion? I can't see any reason at all why it should.
25 September 2007, 08:28 AM
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The Institute of Advanced Motorists and Roadcraft way of doing it is to avoid overlapping the gear change and braking. So, you'd get all your braking done for the maneuver, then block change into the appropriate gear, usually second and then balance the throttle through the turn.
Roadcraft allows a little overlap but the IAM don't.
Of course, the most important thing is to be in control and ensure that those around know what you are/plan to do and that you can see what all the other road users (including pedestrians) are doing (the information phase).
Steve
Roadcraft allows a little overlap but the IAM don't.
Of course, the most important thing is to be in control and ensure that those around know what you are/plan to do and that you can see what all the other road users (including pedestrians) are doing (the information phase).
Steve
In my view, there is more risk in losing traction when changing down in slippery conditions than braking. You have to get the revs to match road speed exactly. As mentioned previously, brakes are designed for slowing you down. Also, in 2WD cars the engine will only have half the braking power.
Last edited by GeeDee; 25 September 2007 at 08:38 AM.
25 September 2007, 12:00 PM
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25 September 2007, 12:35 PM
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Don't know - you shouldn't have as the IAM don't like it! I've had this conversation with chief observers and my examiner.
I heel and toe when driving enthusiastically but remember the IAM are safety driven and so in their view it's more important to get the braking done and then choosing the right gear than overlapping the process.
Steve
I heel and toe when driving enthusiastically but remember the IAM are safety driven and so in their view it's more important to get the braking done and then choosing the right gear than overlapping the process.
Steve
25 September 2007, 12:51 PM
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I've just had another look at the advanced driving book. It doesn't say that heel and toe is bad and indeed recommends that smooth gear changes should be made. However the Stockport group frown on the practice as I found out during my observed runs (my little Clio Cup was dead easy to heel and toe in).
Steve
Steve
25 September 2007, 05:41 PM
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In my view, there is more risk in losing traction when changing down in slippery conditions than braking. You have to get the revs to match road speed exactly. As mentioned previously, brakes are designed for slowing you down. Also, in 2WD cars the engine will only have half the braking power.
... But in my view this could not be further from the truth. I will stand by breaking with the engine being a safest way to slow down in bad conditions. My opinion is based on a lot of experience driving on snowy and icy roads, especially in RWD Matching the RPM ??? That is counter intuitive, that is exactly what you must not do if you want to slow down, unless of course you're shifting two gears down from 7000 rpm
Last edited by gar; 25 September 2007 at 05:51 PM.
25 September 2007, 07:26 PM
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That may be in your view somehow and I dare you to prove that ... But in my view this could not be further from the truth. I will stand by breaking with the engine being a safest way to slow down in bad conditions. My opinion is based on a lot of experience driving on snowy and icy roads, especially in RWD
Matching the RPM ??? That is counter intuitive, that is exactly what you must not do if you want to slow down, unless of course you're shifting two gears down from 7000 rpm
... But in my view this could not be further from the truth. I will stand by breaking with the engine being a safest way to slow down in bad conditions. My opinion is based on a lot of experience driving on snowy and icy roads, especially in RWD Matching the RPM ??? That is counter intuitive, that is exactly what you must not do if you want to slow down, unless of course you're shifting two gears down from 7000 rpm
I grant you that gently lifting off to slowly reduce your speed is the "safest" method IF you have plenty of space - Note the big IF.
You stick to your methods and I'll stick to mine
By the way, I do recall reading many years ago that the quickest way to stop a car is by spinning it
Anyway, back to the original question which does not include snow, automatics, etc, etc. Nor does it include advanced driving techniques. Just simple good, safe, practice.
Last edited by GeeDee; 25 September 2007 at 07:29 PM.
03 October 2007, 02:10 PM
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I was always told to be in the right gear for the speed, and to let the engine control the speed. Both for accel and decel.
Is a bit tricky for a new driver, but is the best way.
As for wearing out a gearbox, please. Your more likely to cause worse damage wearing out the crank thrust bearing by keeping your clutch depressed. Ask any Porsche 928 owner.
Is a bit tricky for a new driver, but is the best way.
As for wearing out a gearbox, please. Your more likely to cause worse damage wearing out the crank thrust bearing by keeping your clutch depressed. Ask any Porsche 928 owner.
27 November 2007, 12:43 AM
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Driving Instruction
To pass the current driving test pupils should be taught to brake to the required speed THEN select the appropriate gear (block change is the preffered method at the present time) for that speed. i.e. Slowing down from 30/40mph in 4th/5th gear approaching say, a roundabout, use the brakes to slow the vehicle to 10mph and if clear block change to 2nd gear and drive round the roundabout, if not clear then brake to stop and change to 1st gear ready to move off, (use the hand-brake rather than the foot-brake or clutch to hold the car still).
Also as someone else said
Mirror
Signal
Position
Speed
Look
Or Mirror - Signal - Manouver for short.
Hope this helps.
Good luck with her test.
Also as someone else said
Mirror
Signal
Position
Speed
Look
Or Mirror - Signal - Manouver for short.
Hope this helps.
Good luck with her test.
27 November 2007, 04:58 AM
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bttt
by the look of most drivers these days the driving standard is well below what it should be .
be alert there out there to get you muhahah !
ps police advanced drivers only do a 2 week course thats 10days
how mad is that then there supposed to be pursuit drivers
i dont think so some how . roadcraft i should coco .
be alert there out there to get you muhahah !
ps police advanced drivers only do a 2 week course thats 10days
how mad is that then there supposed to be pursuit drivers
i dont think so some how . roadcraft i should coco .
27 November 2007, 08:16 AM
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To pass the current driving test pupils should be taught to brake to the required speed THEN select the appropriate gear (block change is the preffered method at the present time) for that speed. i.e. Slowing down from 30/40mph in 4th/5th gear approaching say, a roundabout, use the brakes to slow the vehicle to 10mph and if clear block change to 2nd gear and drive round the roundabout, if not clear then brake to stop and change to 1st gear ready to move off, (use the hand-brake rather than the foot-brake or clutch to hold the car still).
Also as someone else said
Mirror
Signal
Position
Speed
Look
Or Mirror - Signal - Manouver for short.
Hope this helps.
Good luck with her test.
Also as someone else said
Mirror
Signal
Position
Speed
Look
Or Mirror - Signal - Manouver for short.
Hope this helps.
Good luck with her test.
Luckily, her instructor had to go away for a couple of months and my wife took over to remove some of her worst points (she wouldn't let me teach her for some reason
) and she has scraped through the test. I'm now insisting that she runs with P plates for a while until I'm satisfied she is more competent.
28 November 2007, 03:03 AM
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bttt
Agreed
Think that should read CLUTCH release bearing!
Seems perfect - pity they are not taught that way. It also seems that drivers out there do not understand when the manoever starts and just end up confirming what they are already doing with their indicators especially when they start braking for no apparent reason.
Luckily, her instructor had to go away for a couple of months and my wife took over to remove some of her worst points (she wouldn't let me teach her for some reason ) and she has scraped through the test. I'm now insisting that she runs with P plates for a while until I'm satisfied she is more competent.
Think that should read CLUTCH release bearing!
Seems perfect - pity they are not taught that way. It also seems that drivers out there do not understand when the manoever starts and just end up confirming what they are already doing with their indicators especially when they start braking for no apparent reason.
Luckily, her instructor had to go away for a couple of months and my wife took over to remove some of her worst points (she wouldn't let me teach her for some reason
) and she has scraped through the test. I'm now insisting that she runs with P plates for a while until I'm satisfied she is more competent.p plates are definately a good idea , get some night driving done as well
worth doing im sure of it ;
01 January 2008, 02:36 PM
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ps police advanced drivers only do a 2 week course thats 10days
how mad is that then there supposed to be pursuit drivers
This quote is slightly wrong!!!
class 4 driver- basic panda car famil.
class 3 driver- 2day famil course on patrol cars.
class 2 driver- 4 week advanced driving course inc. blues/twos training.
class 1 driver- traffic units (specialsed trg, eg pursuit driving, convoy escorts, ramming technques etc etc.) each part is a seperate course...
in my nick not many were above class 3 drivers except the armed response guys and the traffic guys!
how mad is that then there supposed to be pursuit drivers
This quote is slightly wrong!!!
class 4 driver- basic panda car famil.
class 3 driver- 2day famil course on patrol cars.
class 2 driver- 4 week advanced driving course inc. blues/twos training.
class 1 driver- traffic units (specialsed trg, eg pursuit driving, convoy escorts, ramming technques etc etc.) each part is a seperate course...
in my nick not many were above class 3 drivers except the armed response guys and the traffic guys!
01 January 2008, 07:23 PM
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ps police advanced drivers only do a 2 week course thats 10days
how mad is that then there supposed to be pursuit drivers
This quote is slightly wrong!!!
class 4 driver- basic panda car famil.
class 3 driver- 2day famil course on patrol cars.
class 2 driver- 4 week advanced driving course inc. blues/twos training.
class 1 driver- traffic units (specialsed trg, eg pursuit driving, convoy escorts, ramming technques etc etc.) each part is a seperate course...
in my nick not many were above class 3 drivers except the armed response guys and the traffic guys!
how mad is that then there supposed to be pursuit drivers
This quote is slightly wrong!!!
class 4 driver- basic panda car famil.
class 3 driver- 2day famil course on patrol cars.
class 2 driver- 4 week advanced driving course inc. blues/twos training.
class 1 driver- traffic units (specialsed trg, eg pursuit driving, convoy escorts, ramming technques etc etc.) each part is a seperate course...
in my nick not many were above class 3 drivers except the armed response guys and the traffic guys!
02 January 2008, 12:23 PM
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To pass the current driving test pupils should be taught to brake to the required speed THEN select the appropriate gear (block change is the preffered method at the present time) for that speed. i.e. Slowing down from 30/40mph in 4th/5th gear approaching say, a roundabout, use the brakes to slow the vehicle to 10mph and if clear block change to 2nd gear and drive round the roundabout, if not clear then brake to stop and change to 1st gear ready to move off, (use the hand-brake rather than the foot-brake or clutch to hold the car still).
Also as someone else said
Mirror
Signal
Position
Speed
Look
Or Mirror - Signal - Manouver for short.
Hope this helps.
Good luck with her test.
Also as someone else said
Mirror
Signal
Position
Speed
Look
Or Mirror - Signal - Manouver for short.
Hope this helps.
Good luck with her test.
'IF' your daughter is being taught to brake and change at the same time get another instructor as she's going to fail her test..!
The theory is 'keep it simple simon' (KISS for short) by cutting out unnecessary gear changes, which should allow more time for observation. Ultimately you're looking to build a base from which a new driver can learn to built up their level of perception, something that cannot be taught via the 'L' test, as it takes a certain amount of experience to obtain.
Remember, the 'L' test is all about learning to meet the minimum level of competence to be able to drive SAFELY, and not necessarily what's the best as this may be too complicated and therefore counter productive.
Another reason why most experienced drivers couldn't pass an 'L' test if their life depended on it..!
Jason (ex DTp ADI)
02 January 2008, 01:43 PM
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What's the approved sequence when braking down to a standstill from high speed - say, 70 - 0 when coming off a motorway onto a roundabout?
In my car (big diesel engine) I might be doing 1900 rpm in 6th @ 70mph. So, by 35mph the engine is doing its normal idle speed of around 900rpm; should I dip the clutch at this point and coast down to a halt (which I thought was frowned upon), or change to an intermediate gear?
In my car (big diesel engine) I might be doing 1900 rpm in 6th @ 70mph. So, by 35mph the engine is doing its normal idle speed of around 900rpm; should I dip the clutch at this point and coast down to a halt (which I thought was frowned upon), or change to an intermediate gear?
02 January 2008, 04:08 PM
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What's the approved sequence when braking down to a standstill from high speed - say, 70 - 0 when coming off a motorway onto a roundabout?
In my car (big diesel engine) I might be doing 1900 rpm in 6th @ 70mph. So, by 35mph the engine is doing its normal idle speed of around 900rpm; should I dip the clutch at this point and coast down to a halt (which I thought was frowned upon), or change to an intermediate gear?
In my car (big diesel engine) I might be doing 1900 rpm in 6th @ 70mph. So, by 35mph the engine is doing its normal idle speed of around 900rpm; should I dip the clutch at this point and coast down to a halt (which I thought was frowned upon), or change to an intermediate gear?
Coasting is only bad when you aren't braking or for excessive periods of time.
Steve
02 January 2008, 07:35 PM
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Lol, when I first started my training as an ADI I chirped up smugly saying than this technique would not work in my 1.9 pug GTi for largely the same reasons quoted above. I was proved very wrong by my excellent instructor (ex police high pursuit instructor BTW).
Basically, no, you should NEVER coast with the clutch in at any speed..! Try this (you'll be surprised): Drive your TDI as said at 70mph in top gear and brake as you would for a roundabout etc.. Be brave and you'll be able to come to a stop in top, dipping the clutch just before stopping.
Now if your 6th is very tall (ie for cruising only) then strictly speaking you'd could drop into 5th well before the stop, say when taking a slip road. The idea is that you only make one down shift before getting back on the gas. So if you know you're going to have stop, then that down shift has to be to 1st, after stopping. If however you're approaching a roundabout you make the downshift once you know if it's clear to proceed, matching gear to speed, then accelerating away IYSWIM..?
Basically, no, you should NEVER coast with the clutch in at any speed..! Try this (you'll be surprised): Drive your TDI as said at 70mph in top gear and brake as you would for a roundabout etc.. Be brave and you'll be able to come to a stop in top, dipping the clutch just before stopping.
Now if your 6th is very tall (ie for cruising only) then strictly speaking you'd could drop into 5th well before the stop, say when taking a slip road. The idea is that you only make one down shift before getting back on the gas. So if you know you're going to have stop, then that down shift has to be to 1st, after stopping. If however you're approaching a roundabout you make the downshift once you know if it's clear to proceed, matching gear to speed, then accelerating away IYSWIM..?
02 January 2008, 08:51 PM
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Lol, when I first started my training as an ADI I chirped up smugly saying than this technique would not work in my 1.9 pug GTi for largely the same reasons quoted above. I was proved very wrong by my excellent instructor (ex police high pursuit instructor BTW).
Basically, no, you should NEVER coast with the clutch in at any speed..! Try this (you'll be surprised): Drive your TDI as said at 70mph in top gear and brake as you would for a roundabout etc.. Be brave and you'll be able to come to a stop in top, dipping the clutch just before stopping.
Now if your 6th is very tall (ie for cruising only) then strictly speaking you'd could drop into 5th well before the stop, say when taking a slip road. The idea is that you only make one down shift before getting back on the gas. So if you know you're going to have stop, then that down shift has to be to 1st, after stopping. If however you're approaching a roundabout you make the downshift once you know if it's clear to proceed, matching gear to speed, then accelerating away IYSWIM..?
Basically, no, you should NEVER coast with the clutch in at any speed..! Try this (you'll be surprised): Drive your TDI as said at 70mph in top gear and brake as you would for a roundabout etc.. Be brave and you'll be able to come to a stop in top, dipping the clutch just before stopping.
Now if your 6th is very tall (ie for cruising only) then strictly speaking you'd could drop into 5th well before the stop, say when taking a slip road. The idea is that you only make one down shift before getting back on the gas. So if you know you're going to have stop, then that down shift has to be to 1st, after stopping. If however you're approaching a roundabout you make the downshift once you know if it's clear to proceed, matching gear to speed, then accelerating away IYSWIM..?
I was taught this by a guy who used to train the police, admittedly we're talking 16 years ago! (God have I really been driving that long? Am I really that old???)
