Big time. I was coming around an s-bend, went around the left hander fine then got braver for the right hander, threw it in to the corner and was loosing grip sort of facing where i wanted to go but could feel the front wheels slipping. So this is where it went wrong brought my left foot across to brake a bit causint weight to go back on the frount wheels and then the bloody back is trying to over take me!!!! managed to hold on, pulled in up the road and had 2 fags and then drove home at about 0.5 mph.

Now why did this happen. the car is an 04 sti ppp with whiteline rear arb and droplinks set in the middle hole. It is running 347bhp and it has pirreli p-zeros on
Or what to do next time. IM guessing i should of just stepped on the loud pedal and whet for it instead of trying to be clever.

Big time. I was coming around an s-bend, went around the left hander fine then got braver for the right hander, threw it in to the corner and was loosing grip sort of facing where i wanted to go but could feel the front wheels slipping. So this is where it went wrong brought my left foot across to brake a bit causint weight to go back on the frount wheels and then the bloody back is trying to over take me!!!! managed to hold on, pulled in up the road and had 2 fags and then drove home at about 0.5 mph.

Now why did this happen. the car is an 04 sti ppp with whiteline rear arb and droplinks set in the middle hole. It is running 347bhp and it has pirreli p-zeros on
Or what to do next time. IM guessing i should of just stepped on the loud pedal and whet for it instead of trying to be clever.

Happened because you were going to fast round the corner :p When you get a bit of understeer the only thing you can really do is slow the car down to get grip at the front again. When the weight was all on the left hand side of the car(seeing as you were turning right) your instinct should have been to take the weight off it and try and brake in a straightish line as much as you can, because obviously when you shift all the weight to the front and your cornering hard, the back end is gonna lose grip when its light.

That applies to all cars regardless of suspension mods etc, its just physics.

Almost Lift off oversteer. This is what seperates the men from the boys lol.
You went wrong by braking. It was the braking that provoked the tail end.

You should have let off gently and not braked corrected your steering then back on the power again quickly but not foot to the floor, just enough to bring it back.
The car would have done the rest.

You got away with it this time though :)

pulled in up the road and had 2 fags and then drove home at about 0.5 mph.


HAHAHA:razz: :razz: too much power.... how slow were u going??

Good job u aint got a fast car .....joke :)

You need a wet trackday, come to Blyton on Saturday with the WYIOC....
"You cannae defy the laws of physics...." (Scotty - Star Trek !)

LOL

DunxC

P.S. Once sideways straighten steering up and do a "Daz"....

The way I always look at it is this.

If I have enough grip to use for cornering AND braking then I had enough grip for the corner in the first place without braking.

I'm taking this from my biking days where braking whilst in a corner is a very bad thing. I belive this is true in a car too.

So what I am saying is that braking around a corner is simply robbing you of grip that can be used for cornering alone.

I find that playing with the cars power around a roundabout helps learn the balance and how to affect it positively.

Anyway, its late and this doesn't make sense to me as I write it.

Wayne.

I'm slightly perplexed here. Your descrpition of events comes across as from someone who is not too experienced with the rear end antics of the average impreza....and yet the car has uprated rear ARB and solid drop links that makes the car MORE tail happy? :confused:

Either way, don't brake mid-bend. (there are exceptions for drifting, which involves lots of precise throttle and brake feathering)

If its under steering, the front end has no grip...brakes won't transfer weight to the front...as the front brakes won't work (refer to no grip..which is why its understeering in the first place;) ), so that leaves the rears doing the work, add into the mix a stiff rear ARB without compliance making it behave like a solid axle...and you have bye bye rear end.

As daz says.

Also be aware not apply too much steering input during understeer, the temptation is to wind on more lock as the car is not turning, but you should straighten up until you feel the front starts gripping again before trying winding on more lock.

As others have mentioned, I try not to unsettle the car mid corner: dont lift off power or brake mid corner if possible. Just keep foot on accelerator, gently sqeezing throttle & apply more as I straighten up.

Or you could just turn DCCD to rear, turn in hard, late, let the back step out & then chuck a bit of opposite lock & power it/out of corner, straightening the car by only using throttle!! :norty: !!! And then change ur pants when u get home !!! :eek:

A good trick which is hard to make your hands do because your mind won't let you is when your back end is out and after a little bit off opposite lock is to let go of the steering wheel :D. It centres itself in effect stopping you using too much opposite lock which if it bites will spit you back the other way and then you are in trouble!!

As I said its pretty difficult to do at the time because your head tells you its sooooo wrong, but it does work very effectively :D

i just had a go at left foot braking and headbutted the windscreen, now i know why rally drivers are paid so much.

I had this in my mazda rx7 3rd gen which caused my only ever accident so far and almost my certain last! back stepped out I let of accelerator gently and gave it lots of steering lock to try control the slide and stay on track, but damn it snapped back in so fast and just chucked me of the other way and straight of the road. I'm not pushing my wrx now entil i'v had some track day experience!! and probably not even after that!!

All of the above plus the fact that you had added momentum from the first corner in the S bend, almost call it a Scandinavian Flick.

Simply put though, trust the car more, especially in your state of tune. The car is going to oversteer by default (ie arse out). Know that and use it. Everyone slates the 205 GTi for being a horrendous oversteer monster that will kill you first look, but once you know what is going to happen and how severely, you live with it and use it to your advantage. After a while, you can look like the king of the road.

Failing looking ace, know what the limits are and drive within them

your car has ABS; if you find yourself running out of talent stamp on the brakes and steer round the corner (or at least reduce the speed of the impact). easy.

All very interesting chaps and very helpfull thanks, i must have a bit missing in my brain somewhere because ive tried it again, this time when the front wheels went light i backed of the loud pedal waited for the grip again and then went ginger on the loud pedal again.........put it this way i didnt need to stop for a nicotine fix up the road. but even so once around the apex and back on the acc i could feel the back doing something.
I must take it to a track i think, the roads in devon/som where i live are a bit ropey.

If its a bumpy road, those solid rear drop links will unsettle the rear of car if hits bumps mid-bend (I suspect thats why they were originally rubber). If you don't like how rear end feels, you could try the roll bar on the softer setting.

I tend to come off the throttle a touch, turn in a bit more if I have to and then input more throttle again letting the front wheels grip and pull the car through.

Not sure if thats the right way of doing it but with the DCCD set to 1st orange I find it gives me the ability to enter a bend fast and come out even quicker but is very scary the first time.. especially in the wet.

Spent two hours in the rain at Blyton yesterday....
Rear ARB too stiff meant lots of power-on oversteer on exit of the bends....
As stated above once you lift the grip comes back and the car heads where ever the front wheels are pointed.
Had loads of fun avoiding the "tank-slapper", but didn't let go of the wheel !

I was described as "aggressive", but I now know how far I can go without the car biting back...

Sadly crap tyres meant a Skoda Fabia diesel was probably far quicker than me.... LOL

DunxC

P.S. Next time I'm running road legal slicks... not Wan-Li's on the front and balding Yokohamas at the rear !

i just had a go at left foot braking and headbutted the windscreen, now i know why rally drivers are paid so much.

LOLLL i tried that a few times.... gettin used to it now:norty: :norty:

If u want to learn that, do it when ur going slow.. make sure nobody's in front or behind you....

your car has ABS; if you find yourself running out of talent stamp on the brakes and steer round the corner (or at least reduce the speed of the impact). easy.



if your going too fast around a corner that you are understeering then abs isn't gonna get you round the rest of the bend, the steering that the car is doing with be lessened / eradicated and you are likely to go off at a tangent.

if coming off the power doesn't bring the grip back, then use left foot braking (whilst still on the power) but ONLY if you have practised this and so your foot doesn't only have "clutch mode".

jumping on the power, needs decent power for the speed, rear end bias and exp of doing this, bravery. lacking any of these will only make it worse.

if you are going to run off the road and crash then a quick pull on the handbrake will turn your understeer into a more controllable oversteer, as soon as the back end brakes away get back on the power. if the rate at which the slide angle is increasing then a dap of opposite lock prob no more than 1/8 of a turn, but as soon as you sense the angular acceleration of the slide slow then start to come off the opposite, leave it on too long and it'll snatch back and you'll crash into the original hedge you are trying to avoid as you've still got lock on.

not an exact science, one size doesn't fit all, an all that.

stevie

Damn this thread is getting complecated :confused: I need to get a track day sorted any recommendations on a cheap/good trackday for down here in the south?

Damn this thread is getting complecated :confused: I need to get a track day sorted any recommendations on a cheap/good trackday for down here in the south?

Just brake to slow ur self down! simple :). its understeering because your going too fast into the corner...if you apply more power etc its only going to understeer more so just step on the brakes. I know people have mentioned that you have no grip so brakes wont make a difference, but they will slow the car and the tyres will get grip.

if your going too fast around a corner that you are understeering then abs isn't gonna get you round the rest of the bend, the steering that the car is doing with be lessened / eradicated and you are likely to go off at a tangent.

My description wasn't the best I meant a balanced application (lifting off just as the wheels lock then re-applying), not locking up. Left foot braking will work too but its not something that you should attempt without practise, certainly not in an emergency. :)

Damn this thread is getting complecated :confused: I need to get a track day sorted any recommendations on a cheap/good trackday for down here in the south?

Find yourself a nice wide, open roundabout in a quiet, non-residential area (such as an industrial estate).

Practice turning right at the roundabout(s) in a low gear (second or third, you want a bit of power available). Now try and go into the roundabout with a little bit of speed - just enough to feel the front start to slip. When that happens gently ease off the gas slightly, and you should feel the front start to tuck in again. Ease off a bit more, and you will feel the back end start to come round (oversteer).

All this requires a bit of finesse - you can't barrel into the roundabout with a ton of understeer and expect to correct things....it's all about moving the car around close to the limit of grip - any sudden movements and the grip you have will be gone!

This can all be practiced at under 30mph, and will start to give you a feel of the dynamics of the car when on the limit of grip, in a relatively safe environment.

Can't believe some of the advice given here!!

Braking either with right or left foot is a no-no in this situation. Advising an inexperienced (by that I mean inexperienced with regard to advanced driving techniques such as left foot braking etc) driver to be able to left foot brake effectively is optimistic and a tad irresponsible.

Left foot braking would not get you out of the sh*t in this situation infact it would make it worse.

If you brake whilst the rear and has broken free its going to throw the rear end out even wider.

As mentioned the best way to recover from this would be to briefly let off the power and then gently and more gradually back on it. The grip would then be returned to the front wheels and the car would pull the back end back in line and you'd be on your way. There is absolutely no need to over complicate things with left foot braking and unnecassary use of the handbrake.


Cheers

Daz

Daz, I'd agree with you if we were talking about locking up but controlled braking with gentle steering input will allow the car to settle and you regain control.

Ian

you ment to steer into the skid not away.

If this has put you off your scooby just pm me ill have it.

Could be that it knew a wheel was off the ground so it puts more power through the others.

Can't believe some of the advice given here!!

Braking either with right or left foot is a no-no in this situation. Advising an inexperienced (by that I mean inexperienced with regard to advanced driving techniques such as left foot braking etc) driver to be able to left foot brake effectively is optimistic and a tad irresponsible.

Left foot braking would not get you out of the sh*t in this situation infact it would make it worse.

If you brake whilst the rear and has broken free its going to throw the rear end out even wider.

As mentioned the best way to recover from this would be to briefly let off the power and then gently and more gradually back on it. The grip would then be returned to the front wheels and the car would pull the back end back in line and you'd be on your way. There is absolutely no need to over complicate things with left foot braking and unnecassary use of the handbrake.


Cheers

Daz

I was talking about avoiding the back end losing grip in the first place. if the front end is pushing on its because your going too quick into the corner...get on the brakes(no need for left foot or anything fancy) and as well as slowing it down you'll get weight over the front end to give you grip again. No need to complicate anything!

Can't believe some of the advice given here!!

Braking either with right or left foot is a no-no in this situation. Advising an inexperienced (by that I mean inexperienced with regard to advanced driving techniques such as left foot braking etc) driver to be able to left foot brake effectively is optimistic and a tad irresponsible.

Left foot braking would not get you out of the sh*t in this situation infact it would make it worse.

If you brake whilst the rear and has broken free its going to throw the rear end out even wider.

As mentioned the best way to recover from this would be to briefly let off the power and then gently and more gradually back on it. The grip would then be returned to the front wheels and the car would pull the back end back in line and you'd be on your way. There is absolutely no need to over complicate things with left foot braking and unnecassary use of the handbrake.


Cheers

Daz

i don't see how left foot braking would make it worse, as the point of left foot braking is to transfer weight from the rear to the front of the vehicle, more weight over the front means more grip. i did say only use this if you've practised it.

my comment about using the handbrake was preceded "with if you are going to crash" ie. lifting off the power will bring the grip back, but if you think that that is going to be 20 foot after you've mowed down the 80 year old oak! then you need to do a bit more in attempt to save your NCB.

lifting off is the obvious thing to do and if you think its going to come back before it goes t!ts up then great, sit there an ride her out, thats what i would do. however we don't drive in these vast expanses of tarmac that allow as much run off as needed for a driver arriving too fast for a corner.
so i stand by what i said if you're going to crash anyway give yourself a fighting chance of getting her round, i'd be pulling the handbrake rather than waiting to see if the airbag works.

stevie

Left foot braking is fine if you are already set up to do it, i.e. before entering the bend. If your in an instance whereby the car is already understeering due to a scandanavian flick scenario mid S bend then its probably to late to be using the subtleness required for left foot braking.