Driving DynamicsDriving techniques (trail braking, power slides, donuts, scandinavian flicks, etc), and vehicle dynamics (roll centres, c/g weigh transfer, etc)
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Hi, just wondering if any one can give me any tips/advice on how to control lift off oversteer in the wet? as my car goes very sideways as soon as i lift off
Thanks
Last edited by scooby350bhp; 24 April 2009 at 20:43.
What mods are you running other than increased engine power, if you've stiffened the rear suspension relative to the front by much, you may want to dial in some rear -ve camber to help LoO, camber bolts are cheap, and you don't need the rest of the geometry doing if you fit them.
It happens to my wagon all the time in the wet, I put good all weather tyres on, conti's contact sport 2's. and it slowed it done, try no to hit the brake, gentle with the gas. approach corners with the gas on let off then apply, the car will push and pull its self round the corners. With minimal movements to the steering wheel, no irratic movements, I find that this helps the stability and you can correct the steering if required gentley.
I find that mine ploughs, if you dont take the corner in the right manner then grips again hard, Scary if Im day dreaming.,
If this doesnt help check your dampers, anti roll bars for excesive ware, steering geo, aligment and tyre tread. etc
ive got a front cusco strut brace and full sti suspension, im using avon zz3's all round, have done for 3 yrs, i thinking about going on a track day at prodriive where you get to use the skid pan, does any thing think its worth while? has any one been on these track days before?
think thats where i went wrong then, as i over which resulted in me wiping out a sign post
but if i keep my foot planted the car will grip but as soon as you lift off just goes sideways
Skid Pan training is excellent.Teaches smoothness and how a car reacts to more or less power etc in a safe environment without the risk of writing your car off or someone else.
Generally with 4wd you need to keep the power on and resist the natural temptation to back off when you think its to quick.Best done with an instructor or on a track day though.
Smoothness is the key: It not about keeping your foot planted, its about carefully controlling the engine's power output by smooth control of the throttle pedal.
Gradually lift-off/apply throttle. Don't jerk the steering (bloody PAS induced bad habits ). This will reduce exccesive weight transfer and sudden changes in the suspension's geometry that causes the car to break away into a slide. Same with applying brakes and comming off them.
Whilst you "can" just plant the throttle to the floor (with a RWD or AWD car), its a bad idea; On a slipperly road doing so creates great risk of that lift-off oversteer quickly turning into power-oversteer, which makes the driver want to quickly jump off the throttle again, so car lift-off oversteers again, which then turns into a tank slap and the driver finally ends up spinning and/or crashing.
Do almost all of the braking before turning into a corner (actually 100% should be done before cornering on a public road to account for the unexpected; Save braking on turn-in for the track days).
Using a low gear at high revs will make the throttle VERY sensitive to lift-off and application. Unless you can control the smoothness of your foot's lift off and movement of the throttle pedal, use a higher gear to reduce excessive engine braking.
And final note on basic safe cornering rules on the road; Slow in - fast out. If you lower the entry speed in to a corner the car will be alot more stable and less sensitive. This especially applies to wet weather driving and/or bumpy roads.
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ALi B's comments sum it up nicely.You need to understand the driving differences between FWD and AWD cars as well
Skid Pans are ideal for this.
The only bit of advice im not sure about is the use of a higher gear to reduce enging braking.I would have thought a lower gear would be more responsive and safer when cornering.
I will have a think about that(i could be some time)
The only bit of advice im not sure about is the use of a higher gear to reduce enging braking.I would have thought a lower gear would be more responsive and safer when cornering.
I will have a think about that(i could be some time)
Ahh, maybe I should detail point in a bit depth then. Of course it is subjective
It really does depends on the engine TBH.
Impreza engines don't have that much engine braking, that combined with the slow throttle reponse does make them alot less sensitive to throttle movement than say, a torquey normally aspirated engine. So one can stay in a low gear without too much consequence, with the adavantage (or disadvantage if its too slippery) that the turbo will respond quicker on re-application of the throttle, but on a slippery road there is still a risk.
A big high output V8 on the otherhand needs to have the throttle treated like it were an eggshell in lower gears. Lift-off oversteer even at high speed in 3rd or 4th gear in my old Monaro was evil in the wet, as the engine braking alone was too much to overcome any grip that was available.
Jag v12s are the same; the engine braking from these is brutal - even on the fuel injected engines that have vacuum relief valves on the inlet manifolds. Lift off the throttle pedal too quickly on one with a manual gearbox (or auto locked in 1st) and it can happily swap ends when the throttle pedal is lifted too quickly.
Final point to note: The latter (Jag v12) has no form of EFi mapping with regards to severity of the fuel overrun shut off. Overrun shut off is a key feature on EFi cars that affects the level of engine braking. Modern cars (including Imprezas) have a more gradual fuel shut off on overrun, which makes the car less sensitive to agressive lift-off of the throttle pedal. However an engine that has been remapped may have this feature messed with (often done to get exhaust pops and bangs on the overr-run), which will inturn affect how the engine behaves if the throttle is suddenly closed.
Additionally, cars with electronic throttle bodies (drive by wire), often (depending on mapping) won't allow the driver to snap shut the throttle and instead gradually closes the throttle regardless of the driver lifting off too quickly. Which in-turn makes the engine braking manifest more gradually. (the same goes with application of the throttle - especially noted on high power FWD cars Focus ST, Golf GTi etc where the ECU won't allow the driver to "snap open" the throttle in low gears).
__________________
- I'm a paranoid schizophrenic with surround sound speakers. I hooked my mobile phone to a megaphone to my headphone and I'm still alone. And I'd like to talk to you right now but it's me on the other line. I'll call you back when the weather man on the news gives me the sign.
- I'm a xenophobic tapinophobe and a claustrophobic agoraphobe. And I'd like to talk to you right now, but it's me on my other mind. I'll call you back when the spaceship lands in 1949.
- I'm a bipedal omnivoric semi-simian, who is always mating and I'm chewing up the whole planet, and I'm procreating. And I'd like to talk to you right now, but it's time to procreate. I'll call you back when my head's cut off, but of course that will be too late.
Crikey ALi b that was a detailed response. Get the point with the impreza engine.
As you say subjective.Im getting used to AWD after a time away
Im trying to get mine more instantly responsive because it suits me but i realise that doesnt suit everyone .
Still fantastic engines ,grip and power though
I went into a slippery corner this evenin way too fast and managed to get the car dancing up on tip toes. I knew how I shouldn't react and controlled it enough to prevent any kind of loss of control. I might take that particular corner a littlle bit slower though now in the wet. Its better to keep within tolerances than find out the hard way you ran out of talent.
Good advice above, i have been on skid pans and done advanced driving courses and it really is all about being smooth. You dont have to be aggressive with the controls to be quick, you need to plan ahead a bit more by extending your vision of the road and as mentioned get your braking out of the way before the bend, read the bend, balance the throttle into the bend and squeeze it back on as the curve opens. Have a look in wh smith for a book called roadcraft or try and borrow a copy from somewhere and read about limit points and how to use them, it greatly improves cornering and gives you a faster exit speed and more control of the car.
If you really want to drift then practice it in a alrge open space, it is great fun but it wont get you round a corner faster!!
Thats the one, some of it is a bit patronising and obvious, actually a lot of it is, but there is some good stuff in there as mentioned which if done right improves driving immensely.
this is a good thread and Ali-B's posts were excelent. My wagon lift off overstears in the wet and the dry too if i'm pushing quite (too) hard. It certainly is something i bare in mind, especially having paid the price of trail braking in the past, but i also think it can be a usefull handleing trait as i know i have options. i guess i'm talikng more about dry conditions here where lifting off will more often tighten my line rather then generate a slide that neds correction.
like everyone else said smoothness is the key, and now i think about it PAS has given me a bad habit with being choppy with the wheel. getting the breaking done and suspension settled and loaded up for the corned makes a massive difference
great thread and posts...to the OP, get yourself an adjustable rear 22mm (well for classics, not sure on new age cars?), and your car will understeer less. I found it helps correcting\prolonging slides because the car responds a bit more like a RWD
i was thinking aswel that sorting out your brakes (i.e. binning 2pots if you have them!) will help keep you out of hot water too. then number of times my brakes haven't cut it and i find myself still on the anchors as i'm turning in...
ive got the 4 pots on the front, ive full sti suspension all round, but im finding it abit too soft, does any one else have this problem or is it just? what other suspension set up would you recommend? I had eibach on my racing puma and that was really good, so was maybe thinking to use eibach?
ive got the 4 pots on the front, ive full sti suspension all round, but im finding it abit too soft, does any one else have this problem or is it just? what other suspension set up would you recommend? I had eibach on my racing puma and that was really good, so was maybe thinking to use eibach?
i got hold of some STi suspension cheap and i'm thinking about eibach
springs too seeing as its still waiting to be fitted... have you changed your ARBs? i wouldn't say that i find my WRX wagon's suspension too soft, just could certainly do with being a bit firmer (which is the same as what you're saying actually! )
no ive got standard ARB's, but have been looking at whiteline? has any one got any views on these or any one currently got these set up? but yeah, just thinking that they could be abit firmer as i get abit too much body roll, but my car is very low, could this be my prob?
no ive got standard ARB's, but have been looking at whiteline? has any one got any views on these or any one currently got these set up? but yeah, just thinking that they could be abit firmer as i get abit too much body roll, but my car is very low, could this be my prob?
yes, i have whiteline 22mm ARBs front and rear on my classic wrx wagon. Made a fantastic difference, probably slightly more prone to lift-off oversteer as a result all though! I think a lower car (within reason!!!) would be more composed when it came to directional changes as the center of gravity is lower. i think its just the way imprezas are!
yes, i have whiteline 22mm ARBs front and rear on my classic wrx wagon. Made a fantastic difference, probably slightly more prone to lift-off oversteer as a result all though! I think a lower car (within reason!!!) would be more composed when it came to directional changes as the center of gravity is lower. i think its just the way imprezas are!
Ash, you should run a thicker arb at the rear, sorts the car right out; I ran an adjustable rear 22mm and it was very good, matched it with a fixed front 22mm and it understeered again; 24mm rear adjustable and I've lost the understeer again
Get 24mm front and rear (adjustable) ARB's. The 24mm front will keep the car in the effective dynamic camber curve the car needs to be in to maintain good front traction. The 24mmm rear will get you the rotation you need for the car to turn in well. If you feel the car needs to rotate more quickly then you can adjust the rear bar up to it's 26mm setting, or if it feels to rotate to much for your taste, down to the 22mm setting. The front is also able to adjust up one size to 26mm. (You will be glad you opted for adjustables especially when it gets wet out).
As far as for wet driving, you generally want to loosen up your roll bars a bit, (on both ends) as well as soften the dampers some (if possible). a car more softly set up will be able to better maintain traction in the wet.
Dont forget to mind your tire pressures either. A lower tire pressure then what you run in the dry will keep a greater contact patch on the ground.
Another one to add would be camber. If you have a way to adjust camber, you want to run less negative on both ends in a wet condition. Reason for this is, that when it's warm and dry, the negative camber is beneficial to help keep more contact patch on the road when the sidewall flexes and the tires generates grip. When there is less grip available from the surface (ie. being wet) the tire will not flex nearly as much, and at this point, the negative camber will only be keeping a portion of contact patch off the road resulting in less grip.
A fast car on the track in the dry, and a fast car in very wet conditions can be two very different things. This may seem like a lot of adjusting before an event, but will make your time out on the track much more pleasant.
As for the O.P who is running stock suspension, and has no way to adjust, the best thing to adjust would be your driving style for the wet as others have mentioned, and also try playing with the tire pressure's as I was saying .
Lift off oversteer in the wet
My old 306 S16 
would lift off oversteer wet or dry, brilliant fun.
). This will reduce exccesive weight transfer and sudden changes in the suspension's geometry that causes the car to break away into a slide. Same with applying brakes and comming off them.
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