Dales

Just wondering if anybody has experience of fitting / using water injection. Would be interest on views on the various systems(ERL / Aquamist / Powerboost are the ones I am aware of).

Does it give gains in power, is it safe to use, any other advantages / disadvantages?

Cheers for any advice

Dales

Dales

Glen

Thanks for the reply. Why does it knacker your motor if there is no water in it (non technical terms if poss!). Any idea how much water they get through?

Dales

Russs

Sorry Glen, but that is complete bollocks.

Do some net research on water injection, it is invaluable for in-cylinder cooling. Plenty of previous discussions on here too.

Oh, and I only need to top my water bottle up about every two weeks!

Cosie Convert

If you have a WRX for example, with a small intercooler, you can use WI to good effect for charge cooling. This will allow more boost before Det

Where I live the water is cheaper than octane booster

If you have it set so that it only comes on at full boost you will not use much water at all.

I used to use 1/2 litre in a 12 lap race, that was on full power for about 70% of the time. I used 4 gallons of fuel in the same period !

If you work out how long you spend at full boost each day you will find it is a relatively short period.

A 2 litre WI tank would not need topped up any more often than your fuel tank.

cc

R19KET

Glenn,

No disrespect, but you are talking the biggest load of tosh....

So water "burns off" does it !!!!

Dales:

ERL are the manufacturer of the "Aquamst" system.

If you don't have a mappable ecu, WI will make the car run safer, but you will lose a little power (5~10bhp).

If you do have a re-mappable ecu, then the map should be adjusted to take into account the WI. This will allow you to run more ignition advance, and have extra safety.

Run out of water: How about a low level sender on the WI tank, and a LED on the dash !!!!!!

WI can use up to 200cc of water pm, WOT, so just work out the tank capacity, and how many min's it will give you. Build in some safety margin, by positioning the sender with ** mins of water left.

The VAST MAJORITY of rally teams use WI, most of them use the ERL system, including Prodrive.

I'd still recommend a re~mappable ecu first, then a better turbo, and FMIC, but however good these are, you will still benifit from WI. Just depends on how far you want to go.

Mark.

Dales

Thanks for the replies so far...

I'm actually posting this on behalf of a friend with a Toyota Celica GT4. He has Apexi boost and AFR controllers, with a fairly high max boost setting (1.4 bar from memory). He is concerned about det, particularly as the car occassionally exhibits a flat spot at around 5000rpm, which has not been cured despite being remapped three times. The flat spot is intermittent.

He's considered octane booster, but somebody told him it never mixes properly with the fuel, and is not really recommended.

The main thing he wants to get from WI is improved reliability, but in practice doesn't want to be filling up with water every few minutes. (covers over 50000 miles p.a.)

From what I've read, I presume if you did run out of water, he could just choose a lower boost setting on the boost controller.

Might the more sensible approach simply to go for a slightly less aggressive boost / AFR map


Again, thanks for the interest / response

Dales

GavinP

Dales,

The majority of people I have seen recommend improving the intercooling as much as possible before using WI.

If his GT4 has an air/air or air/water IC, there are always ways of improving it .

Air/Air: front mount IC / better top mount / IC water spray / fans
Air/Water: bigger radiator / higher flowing pump /

Improvements to the intercooling are "free power" whereas WI you would really need to map to take account of the water. As Mark said, power will drop unless the car is remapped.

Thanks

Gavin

Trout...

Well, another thread on WI with a fair mix of views and some, well, bollox!

I have been running water injection and have it fail on me once so can speak from both sides of the house.

I run higher boost 1.4bar - but do not think this is particularly relevent.

Benefits

* Biggest benefit by far is the consistency of power - with WI I able to use my 'full power' map on track with little or not det - this is the first time I have been able to do this

* Conversely if you have a standard ECU that means that on track you will be losing power as the engine heat soaks and then will retard (certainly some cars I passed relatively easily on track - even with my crap driving - seem faster on the road, anecdotal I know...!)

* For rolling road sessions my power with WI has been very consitent - four months apart I had 346 and 345 bhp - the second day I only ran as I was asked to as the other cars were all 'down' on the day

* MORE POWER - yes I definately have quite a lot more power - although requires a remappable ECU

* LESS FUEL - my IDC is 3% less than it was before - so I am saving on fuel costs and octane booster costs which I do not use now

All in all fairly good.

DOWNSIDES

* er......none

The WI failed in the Christmas period due to the scavenger pump in the boot icing up and spliting (14l ice cube in boot )

However when it failed, even with very advanced ignition I would only have had a problem at sustained high revs, and I have knock link (x2) and EGT guages and so spotted the problem very quickly.

So, overall, not a complete waste of money. And, hey, if Mr Bodgit can get it to work successfully then a WRC should be able too. I believe that seven WRC teams use the ERL system.

Finally - set up with the right injector sizes a tank lasts for a long time on the road and pretty well on track. The Forge Water Tank is a honey and holds sbout 14l.

Trout

AL B

Hi Dales' mate here, the guy who instigated this enquiry. Just to expand on the info already provided by Dales, The car is 93' ST185 GT4 and is running usual stage 1 mods (exhaust etc)supplemented by Apexi fuel and boost controllers. The boost spikes at 1.35bar ish and holds 1.25 comfortably (std intercooler and turbo). The tuner (DP motorsport) assures there is no Detonation whilst running this set up. I sometimes experience a drop off in power after 5000rpm although the boost reading does not drop signficantly. Also the car goes best in cold wet weather as to be expected, however the slight power loss also seems to be evident in these conditions. I am advised the ST185 std intercooler is very efficient and therefore I probably won't go down the frontmounted road. (Air Con would have to be sacraficed in any case). I'm lead to believe water injection will be beneficial in reducing charge temp, preserving engine etc. I'm not proposing to use this system to raise boost (i'm probably only kidding myself in making this statement), but am definetly interested in consistant 'all weather' performance and reasurance that det will be non-existant. I'd also like to be rid off this intermittant power drop off.
With consideration of the above is WI for me, and if so which system? ERL and Highpower are the only ones of which i'm aware.
Thanks for the continued interest and to Dales for posting this initially
Dales, i'm still waiting for you to order this pocket dragstrip so i can whip your *** officially!!!

Cheers!

IWatkins

AL B,

I would have the car looked at by someone who knows GT4s to see if they can recreate the problem on a rolling road. If you are having a flat spot/holding back at highish revs. on an ST185, it is more then likely det. (regardless of what people may tell you).

A more outside chance is that you have a fuelling problem in so much as the fuel pump may not be able to supply the fuel you need at 5k rpm for the amount of boost you are running. This could just be down to an old fuel pump.

There again, you may have the injectors flat out and one is running weak causing det.

On yet another hand, the knock sensors on ST165, ST185 and ST205 engines are all fragile. They tend not to fail at first, they just become sensitive. Any noise at all can set them off, hence retarding your engine power.

However, my first guess would be too high a boost for the amount of fuel available.

Get it on the rollers and get it checked out by someone who knows GT4's. I would recomend Powerstation, but may be a bit far for you.

Cheers

Ian (ex GT4 owner)

Trout...

As an addendum - there are two uses of water injection, charge cooling and in cylinder cooling.

The former - as used on the original Escort Cossie has the injector pre-intercooler will cool the charge temp as it passes through the intercooler although you have to be frugal with the water as even a small amount will displace the inlet charge with water in its gaseous state which is not a good replacement for air as it does not provide oxygen for combustion. The charge cooling approach will have less effect on det control - but in theory will release more power at the same boost level.

The second which is to have WI pre/post throttle body will provide in-cylinder cooling - this has a much more significant effect on consistency and ability to run more advance/higher boost. In cylinder injection will have limited effect on charge cooling and charge density as it is injecting vapour very late in the cycle.

Of course you can have both!

Cheers,

Trout

GavinP

Al,

Does your ST185 have an air/air or air/water IC ?

Intercooler Fan: Here

Air/Water enhancements: Here

The www.gtfour.com seems very good!

Thanks

Gavin

Jolly Green Monster 2

Try talking to Fensport... they know this engine like the back of there hand!

www.fensport.co.uk

They should be able to tell you what the flat spot is caused by probably.

AL B

Thanks for everyones interest. Having considered all suggestions kindly forwarded by you scooby guys, i think checking the car out on the rollers is the next step before i spend any money on possibly unnecessary solutions. Being a Lancashire resident the powerstation is a way out, although not out of the question if these people really know the GT4. Well Lane Turbos is the nearest 4wd centre i think, howver i did approach Well Lane prior to carrying out any modifications, they didn't seem to interested and also promoted Superchips! As recommended i need someone who is experienced with the GT4. I deal with Fensport on a regular basis for parts, but as far as i am aware they don't have rollers.

Any ideas for a reputable tuning co. with rollers and GT4 knowledge?

The car was at DP yesterday to check the fueling (and for service) as suggested. Dave Perry drove the car personally and did not notice any of the symptoms, and was very complementary of the cars performance. He also agreed a run on the rollers would be good idea, if only to establish current power output. Unfortunately DP don't have the sacred equipment. Dave gave me some Octane boost to try (Miller) although he stressed the car is set up to run safely without.

Going back to the original topic i think WI is still on my immediate list of mods. ERL seems to be the most tried and tested. I will take advice from Fensport regarding the injection postion ( Theres no bloody room between throttle body and intercooler on the ST 185) unless any of you guys have any bright ideas!

Thanks again

AL

IWatkins

AL,

Powerstation have worked on a lot of GT4s so I would say it would be worth the journey for the analysis of the problems.

With regards to WI, I used to run it on my GT4 and it worked well for what I wanted it for. I had quite a few problem with the ERL pumps, but I'm told that is all sorted now.

As for the location of the jet. If you look at where the intercooler joins the throttle body you will see the throttle cable/spring. There is room just before the throttle butterfly to fit the WI jet. You just drill a hole in the throttle body and then have it tapped.

Get someone else to do it for you if you are not sure. You don't really want bits of ally inside the throttle body and then into the engine Oh, and you will have to go into the side of the throttle body (say 45 degrees from vertical) rather than the top otherwise the hose will be bent when you hut the bonnet.

Cheers

Ian

submannz

Well I run an 50/50 alcohol and water injection mix, which is switched a number of ways, off full throttle and at an adjustable boost level. The water and alcohol is heated by the extractors first so is steam injection rather than water. This allows the water/alcohol/air/petrol to atomise better.

Trout...

So how does steam injection work? Seems like a bizarre strategy to me.

The in-cylinder cooling is due to the latent heat of the phase change of water liquid into water gas. If the water is already gaseous then all you are doing is robbing the engine of oxygen for the combustion process.

Richard at ERL fills his water tank with ice cubes to maximise the cooling effect - wonder how hot the water gets being pressurised to 8bar

Trout

Cosie Convert

Because water can not be compressed it will gain no heat from being pressurised to 8 bar.

Trout...

So water cannot be compressed - and why do you think that?

Trout

Cosie Convert

Sorry M8 missed your

submannz

You can inject useful amounts of water as steam, without the problems associated with large water droplets from normal water injection. Exhaust manifold heat is used to boil water which is then admitted to the inlet manifold. The key principle here is that the steam, upon mixing with the cooler air and fuel mixture, will condense into a dense fine cloud prior to entering the cylinders. Being so fine it can mix and distribute evenly. Another benefit is the condensing steam liberates heat which helps to vaporize the liquid fuel droplets.
Since we are boiling the water under quite high vacuum, the temperature doesn't have to reach 212 degrees F / 100 C to begin boiling.

Plus the steam works wonders it cleans your valves and pistons from carbon deposits, which also gives you performance benifits

submannz

Steam injection is the easiest to install and get success from in a standard production car.

Now if you are racing then water injection is the best method, on Turbo Subarus it can drop the charge temperature by 90deg at 14PSI.

BUT NOTE: Only use distilled water with water injection.

Knowlesy

Got an MYO1 & just ordered from Scoobymania MRT version of water intercooler spray kit, will let u know if it keeps me cool this summer!

john banks

How much more power did you guys get?

Delboy2

Your mate has a GT4 ST185, before I purchased my MY96 Wagon I used to have an MR2 Turbo which basically is the same engine as the GT4. Mine was heavily modified with the following:- Blitz Ecu, HKS Air Filter, 5zigen exhaust, Modified Actuator, Blitz Boost controller, Decatted, Apexi SAFC and Aquamist ERL water injection. The turbo was a CT20 and would initially boost up to 20psig and would hold 16psig right through to the redline. The answer to your question is the Water Injection made a huge difference in reducing detonation enabling higher boost. This was proved when on the rollers, firstly with a 0.5mm jet but when the 0.8mm jet was fitted the power increased 5-10 bhp over the first but more substantially the torque increased from 293lb/ft to 323lb/ft. The water injection was set to operate when the boost reached 7psig and over. I still have the APEXI SAFC, BLITZ Boost Controller and ERL Aquamist W/I kit and may use them on MY96 scooby.
Hope this helps your mate, also get him to talk to Adrian at Fensport as he is Ace with these engines.

Cheers

Simon Lines

Hi Guys
I also used to have an ST185, water inj is one of the best things you can do to this car in order to run as std never mind with more boost. In summer the thing is a complete pain taking ign away as the inter"heater" affects the charge temps (for the worse) most of the time.
Cheers
Simon

5 Type R

You guys should speak with Dino at Owen Developments as he has been running WI on his (my old) Rev 3 MR2 Turbo for a few years
and knows it inside out. He certainly made significant gains when it was mapped properly

dino@owendevelopments.co.uk - 01865 820580

I now run the same dual pump system on my type r and am very happy with the safety/performance it gives now mapped