Blue by You

iTrader: (23)

I don't know if this young boy's plight has been covered elsewhere in SNETworld, apologies if it has, but does anybody else think the police action that has resulted in his parents being incarcerated in a Spanish jail is completely disproportionate?
I completely agree that the initial disappearance should have been investigated to the extent of discovering their whereabouts and intentions, but to then subject the family to the stress of separation by imprisoning the parents pending the outcome of extradition proceedings seems to me to border on authoritarian thuggery by the powers-that-be. All in positions of power, be they doctors, ministers, or police of varying ranks, all claim to have the child's best interests at heart, and yet the first thing they do when the family are found is separate the poor lad from the two people who truly do seem to want what's best for him.
How must that little fella feel knowing he is very sick, and that his Mum and Dad cannot come and see him. Perhaps he even thinks they have deserted him.
How desperate and alone must he feel?
Where is the balance of justice when these people are thrown in jail, admittedly at the moment only for a maximum of 72 hours,, and yet the streets run rife with all kinds of scum bags doing 'community service'.
I think it's an extraordinary misuse of power.

dpb

I don't see why they took him to Spain, why couldn't they have refused treatment here

Blue by You

iTrader: (23)

They took him to Spain in the hope of receiving treatment that was either refused or not available here.
And he is their child.
Don't they have some kind of right to do what they think is best for their son?

hodgy0_2

I think it has been a massive overreaction by the authorities/state

They seem to simply want what they, the parents, think is best for their child

Then to be pursued by the authorities and slapped with an arrest warrant, outrageous behaviour

The police commissioners explanation was both weak and pathetic

I bet the authorities will be finding a way to back track

It was muddied somewhat by the fact that the parents are Jehovah witnesses - and it may have some daft religious dogma but that seems not to be the case

dpb

But the treatment was in czecho rep. Or somewhere wasn't it ?

dpb

I agree they shouldn't be prosecuted though!

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

I can't help but feel that in this case the Doctors lost total trust of the parents, and instead of reassuring the parents they dictated that what they were doing could not be questioned. If that is found to be true (and not covered up - time will tell ), then its hardly surprising the parents took him.

This is probably the biggest peek we have seen into the world of high ranking doctors who see the problem and treatments, but not the patient or their family.

angel1368

iTrader: (1)

that poor boy must feel so upset and alone, not only is he fighting brain cancer but hes now in a hospital where he cant even speak the same language

Tidgy

If they had refused in relgious ground nothing would have been done

jasey

It's all a bit odd - there must be more to this than meets the eye.

If not then the Police have got this one badly wrong !

hodgy0_2

I dont think there is much more to it tbh

Simple spineless **** covering - the authorities (I suspect the polices hands where tied tbh) simply got it wrong

Miniman

iTrader: (2)

Total overreaction by the police and NHS Trust.

The rhetoric used before the weekend by the police and subsequently reported by the media (who didn't seem to challenge or question the authorities view) was poor and painted them as criminals from the start. No one knew the facts, last of all those in authority making the statements.

Now it emerges that a search warrant was issued for the grandparents house too!

The police now have issued an international arrest warrant for the parents. Which as expected has resulted in the parents (who fully cooperated when arrested by the Spanish police) being separated from the poor lad at a time when he is most desperate.

An assistant chief constable was making the statements on Friday. You have to wonder how some one gets to a senior position like that without seemingly being able to stand back from the situation and apply a critical mind.

It kinda reminds me of the police and media furore when a kids goes missing (and its a suspected abduction) with a much older man - find him quick and arrest him so he can't be any danger to the kid.

Felix.

Just to throw in another view point:

Baby P - Police and the authorities were heavily criticised for not acting sooner, resulting in the child being left with the parents who neglected him and he died. And there were many other incidents of children being 'neglected to death' by their parents.

So in this case, based on medical advice - the child should have remained in the hospital the medical advice from them was that he was in the best place.

So if the parents decide to to simply take the child out of their care, do you want the police to just stand back when the hospital phone and say "oh well, they are his parents, so there is not much we can do". If he died soon after, would the police be criticised for not doing something to stop then from removing the child from the hospital or trying to find and return him.

The child's interests must come first. Expert medical opinion suggests that he needs to be in a hospital for the best chance of his survival. His parents have removed him from this place; so can we chance them doing it again if they are re-united????

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Its a valid point, Felix. But the problem is the parents can be questioned about their ability to parent or their opinions on treatment....but who questions the ability or opinion of the doctors in charge? Or that particular NHS trust? Simply put; Nobody - not until something goes wrong and a inquiry is held, like Staffordshire to name a few.

I have to admit my view is somewhat tainted by the fact that the massive dosages of chemo killed my uncle...not the cancer. I personally only found out how big the doses were (in comparison to others) after talking to other cancer sufferers (who survived). If alternative treatments are available, and valid, but not provided, then its only natural to question a doctor's opinion. My point is the chemo itself can kill as it makes the patient extremely vulnerable to secondary complications due to the side effects. If its not needed or there is an alternative, then that has to be considered not dismissed point blank.

Felix.

I think the police knew the facts from day 1 when the hospital reported the incident and explained why he was such a high risk missper - perhaps the police/authorities felt in not appropriate to share every minute detail with the public.

Search warrants will be issued - I think you would expect the police to start looking everywhere for him, starting with those close at hand. If you look at the worse case scenario then most murders are committed by a family or close associate; an as a lot of murders begin as a missing from home..... It seems strange however that the grandparents refused a voluntary search of the house when a child's safety is at hand.

As i said before, the parents have taken him from a place of safety, so an arrest warrant will need to be issued so they can return the child to hospital as the parents seem adamant not to return him there.

And when a kid goes missing as a suspected abduction - if that was your child, would you want the police to arrest the 'older male' they were found with or just inform you that we found them with this older bloke who said he was just going to show them some puppies, so we let them go.

hodgy0_2

Sorry but comparing this case to the one of Babby P is ridiculous

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

You can rest assured of one thing... lessons will be learned

An0n0m0us

I completely agree with the OP. Finding the child was of the utmost urgency but then for the police to go as far as they have is massively wrong.

It's nothing short of bullying and going way over the top in making an example out of them. I also have to question the Dr's who said that the child was basically going to die as his feeding machine wasn't going to be operable. It turns out it was fine and the parents didn't have any issue with plugging it in and doing what needed to be done to ensure their Son was fed, they had plenty of feed bags by all accounts.

Yes they were wrong to do what they did in the manner they did it but the response other than to find the child has been appallingly heavy handed.

Godspeed Brakes

iTrader: (259)

Felix.

I am merely suggesting that parents of a child sometimes (and I emphasise - "sometimes") do not have the child's best interests at heart.

In this case - if it had all gone wrong and the child died whilst on the run, would comparisons be drawn and authorities critisised.......?

An0n0m0us

Are you mad? You want to compare a child desperately ill with brain cancer and the parents at their wits end with a baby brutally murdered by 'people' not fit to be categorised as human beings.

Blue by You

iTrader: (23)

Yes it could easily have gone very wrong and Ashya might have died as a result of the effort to obtain better treatment and the absence of recognised medical care. His parents would then have had to face all manner of persecution/prosecution for their actions, when they were still acting in his best interests as seen by them.

Hypothetically, were he to have died in an English hospital after having been refused treatment, who would have been harrassed and persecuted then? No one.
But he would still be dead.

I fail to see what his parents have done wrong.
Of course there have been many tragic cases where children have been harmed by their carers/parents. This is why the initial investigation of Ashya's whereabouts was crucial. But having discovered this family were doing nothing more than seeking better treatment, surely that should be the end of interference by the police. Their behaviour is certainly not deserving of a few nights in the cells.

Midlife......

iTrader: (2)

There will be more to this than given by the media.

I work on Cancer clinics in a small way but in general each cancer type has an MDT (multi disciplinary clinic). In the MDT I attend there are about 10 people and we link in with another major cancer clinic centre by video link and have access to other centres.

It might be that a cancer patient has their diagnosis / plan / outcome looked at by 20-30 people ranging from surgeons, physicians, oncologists, pathologists,Clinical nurse specialists, psychologists, psychiatrists, dieticians, speech therapists, stoma care, geriatrics, paediatricians, end of life care, McMillan, Radiologists, Radiographers.......and for children and teenagers there are all the other support staff.

Plus we have guidelines about risk / benefit of treatments including surgery, robot surgery, chemo, radiotherapy, IMRT, Cyberknife, Proton beam therapy and others including referrals to other centres.

If someone without the ability to consent themselves is taken from a treatment centre then the law kicks into motion.......

Remember Neon Luca?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...treatment.html

Shaun

Felix.

OK - so the police find them, what would you expect next - based on the fact that medical opinion is saying that the child needs to be returned to hospital and the parents are refusing this? Leave them to it and risk the child dying? Or return the child to hospital? - hence the warrant, or else we would be just following them all over the place.

The Dr said that the battery life would run out after a time. Since they were on the run could he make the assumption that they had access to a power source or does he consider the possibility that they might not have this; or indeed what their intentions were.

I'm not sure what you were wanting to happen as a result of the initial report from the hospital?

Hospital - "We have very ill child that has been taken out of the hospital by his parents and the Dr's advice is that he needs to be returned asap"

Police - "Ah - well we can only assume that his parents know whats best and assume that they will be able to find a power source and feed bags etc etc; so we wont get involved" Or "We will look for him, but if the parents won't return him then there is nothing we can do"

Felix.

OK then - we will assume that all parents know whats best for their child and always have their child's interests at heart

An0n0m0us

No matter how you dress it up the 2 cases are not comparable in any way. The hospital would have been in a position to tell the police the care the parents had been giving to their child bearing in mind how long he had been there what they had been through as a family.

An0n0m0us

You clearly haven't read what I said. I fully agreed with the huge 'manhunt' to find him and the urgency behind that. What I don't agree with is when they located the child and found him hooked up to his machine was to then arrest the parents.

I tell you what that surgeon was doing, he was scare mongering to get the biggest response he could. Yes find the child first and foremost and then find out what the parents were doing. If they were causing the child distress and suffering then they would be guilty of neglect and would have deserved to be arrested but that was NOT the case. He was fine (as fine as he could be) and was hooked up to his machine the same as he was in hospital. It should then have been decided whether the intention of the parents was to admit him to hospital or what other plans they may have had and to explain they either admitted him to hospital with immediate effect or face arrest.

What is best for that child? It would have been for his parents to have been persuaded to take him to hospital and remain with him as opposed to being arrested whilst an emergency court order was applied for to keep the child in hospital for as long as deemed necessary. Not separate them, take the child to hospital and stick his parents in the cells for at least 72 hours.

Those charges of neglect I think will be very difficult to get a conviction for if they get any decent lawyer and prove their child was being cared for with all the equipment he had when he was in hospital and were seeking alternative medical care than what he was getting i.e. proton therapy as opposed to being forced to have chemotherapy.

What really annoys me in this country is that £50m and counting can be spent on security alone for the NATO summit in Newport/Cardiff yet money can't be found for treatments that can save children's lives because they are too expensive. Don't even start me on the money that is then sent abroad instead of spending it on saving children in this country.

Felix.

So we just let them get on with things their way - despite the 30 people's expertise noted in 'Midlife's' post suggesting that the child is at risk if he is not returned to hospital.

And if he died as a result of his parents removing him from medical care - they might have faced persecution and prosecution; but the question will be asked "Why didn't the authorities do everything in their power to prevent the child from dying?"

Felix.

Scaremongering? - The medical team have stated the fact that the child is ill and needs to be returned for immediate medical care, they back this up with his medical records.....

He may have been "hooked up to his machine" but i doubt he had anything else in there to monitor and look after his medical needs. I doubt they would be monitoring his obs, blood cell counts etc etc; and i doubt they had the medical expertise to look after him in his current condition or monitor and deal with any deterioration.

His parents do not want him in hospital, so can not be persuaded otherwise. This is why they took him out of the hospital and fled in the first place. Even if they do return him, whats to say they wont do it again or create some sort of siege to get what they want? Do we risk it.......

Felix.

And who do you turn to to decide if Proton therapy was the best treatment in this case - the medical team treating him?

They were arrested as there was an international arrest warrant outstanding - i believe its now up to the Spanish Judge to decide what happens next.

I would suggest had they have stayed in the UK, the arrest may not have been necessary as the child could have been taken into protective police custody. Once abroad, this avenue may not have been available.