alter_ego

>> jlanng
No.
The offence (S172 - failing to supply) is committed on day 28 after the NIP was posted. So, they have to lay the papers no later than 6 months and 28 days after the NIP was posted. While they could have laid the papers and be sitting on the summons, since in your example, they would have to have been sitting on it for two months and 3 days, if it did happen, it would be an "abuse of process" (assuming that there wasn't a good reason for it, e.g. you were out of the country). R -v- Brentford Magistrates ex parte Wong (1980).

>>T.C.
The Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988, Section 1.-
1.—(1) Subject to section 2 of this Act, where a person is prosecuted for an offence to which this section applies, he is not to be convicted unless—
(c) within fourteen days of the commission of the offence a notice of
the intended prosecution specifying the nature of the alleged offence
and the time and place where it is alleged to have been committed,
was—
(ii) in the case of any other offence, served on him or on the
person, if any, registered as the keeper of the vehicle at the time
of the commission of the offence.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994, Section 6.-(3)
inserted the following sub-section into the RTOA 1988 (as above).
--------------------------------------------------------------------
(1A) A notice required by this section to be served on any person
may be served on that person—
(a) by delivering it to him;
(b) by addressing it to him and leaving it at his last known
address; or
(c) by sending it by registered post, recorded delivery service or
first class post addressed to him at his last known address.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Therefore, second class post is not a valid method of service under
section 1, and the accused is "not to be convicted."

>> hedgehog
As can be seen, it applies to any person.
The significance of a recipient not being the registered keeper is that, unless he has proof that the first NIP was sent second class, he must keep quiet until the court that his was sent second class. This is because there is no time limit on him, and if the scammers find out, they can just fix it by issuing a new one to him 1st class.

[Edited by alter_ego - 11/6/2003 11:44:26 PM]

paulr

Is there?

Scooby96

14 days I think unless you're a company car driver

davegtt

should have a NIP (notice of intended prosecution
) within 2 weeks, otherwise your scot free

Paulo P

iTrader: (42)

Depends how you were caught I think. Something like 6 months.

Been norty?

davegtt

scooby 69, can u ellborate a bit more on this???? I thought I might have been caught 3 weeks ago in the company car and presumed I was OK.... anymore info u can tell me?

Nox

I thought that it had to have been posted within 14 days?

topboss

If it was a company car they have longer (I think 6 months) to track you down I'm afriad.

paulr

Was flashed about 12 days ago.....70 in a 50 (mototrway roadworks).

Surely its not as simple as 14 days,i mean if it comes on the 11th day who's to say you dont wait two more days then say its too late.
If its when posted do they have proof of posting date?

Boss Hogg

it's two weeks - unless the Police can present a good reason why you wouldn't receive it in that time (eg you've moved house, your address at DVLA is wrong) - from speedtrap.co.uk

"The Notice of Intended Prosecution (NIP) arrived outside of the "14" day period. You should be able to get the prosecution dropped - get our lawyers to write you a legal letter and it should go away. This is assuming that you are the registered owner of the vehicle.


The NIP arrived outside of the"14" day period, as they had my address/details incorrectly recorded or not upto date. Section 1(1) Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 requires that Notices of Intended Prosecution must be served within 14 days if a prosecution is to be successful. However, s2(3) of that Act provides an escape clause for the police. It says:

"failure to comply with the requirement of s1(1) of this act is not a bar to the conviction of the accused in case where the court is satisfied:-

(a) that neither the name and address of the accused nor the name and address of the registered keeper could with reasonable diligence have been ascertained in time for the notice to be served in compliance with s1(1)"

paulr

"The Notice of Intended Prosecution (NIP) arrived outside of the "14" day period. You should be able to get the prosecution dropped - get our lawyers to write you a legal letter and it should go away. This is assuming that you are the registered owner of the vehicle.


Cheers boss hog.............like i said though,who's to know if it arrived on day 13 and you claim it arrived on day 15?

Leslie

It is 14 days plus time for postage Paul. Probably 2 days on top. Just have to wait with bated breath!

Les

paulr

Thanks Leslie....fingers crossed.

hedgehog

An NIP has to be served on the registered keeper of the vehicle within 14 days. In real terms this has come to mean that the police need to claim that they posted the NIP within 14 days and so the bottom line is that it has little meaning at all. Time is allowed for postage etc. so all the police need is a record saying they posted it or a PC willing to testify in court that it was posted. The law, in utter madness, assumes that if the NIP was posted then you got it through your door. No allowances are made for loss in the post or any of the real world stuff. Remember this is about making the maximum amount of cash as fast as possible so they are out to get into your wallet no matter what.

It is very, very rare for someone to escape conviction on the 14 day rule as this means of tax collection is highly automated. When was the last time the inland revenue forgot to tax your wages? That's about your odds of getting off on the 14 day rule.

If you are not the registered keeper of the vehicle then the NIP will be served on the keeper, usually a leasing company. Once this has been done then the police have, basically, 6 months to get back to you.

There are also a wide and varied range of other "mistakes" they are allowed to make that can be corrected or that can extend the 14 day deadline.

Under no circumstances should you lie about not having received the NIP. This would require you to lie in court and they will put a lot of effort into securing a conviction for perjury, ask Jeffery Archer. It is also of no benefit to you as if some copper turns up and says that he posted the NIP then it is deemed to have been served no matter what you claim, so you will also get done for speeding.

There are still a range of options open to you and I would suggest that you take a look at the following sites:

http://www.safespeed.org.uk/unsigned.html

http://www.abd.org.uk

paulr

Thanks hedgehog..........nothings arrived yet so i'll just wait in hope.

T.C

All the Police have to show is that the NIP was sent out within the 14 day period to the address of the last known registered keeper. In some cases it can take weeks for the NIP to be received by the person accused of committing the offence, but this is perfectly legal and acceptable in law.

The 6 month rule applies to Court proceedings. If a summons is to be issued, then information must be laid before Magistrates within 6 months of the commital of the offence otherwise no further action can be taken. This can result in the actual summons being issued several months after the actual offence itself, but provided the information was laid within the 6 month period, then it can still proceed.

TopBanana

So if, for the sake of argument, you received an NIP 9 months ago and just ignored it, they could still come after you?

T.C

In theory yes.

Boss Hogg

however you still have a get out clause - just claim that because of the time delay in receiving the NIP claim that you cannot remember who was driving (helps if you have wife/gf etc who's named driver on your policy or if it's a joint car) - worked for me - I got a NIP about 4 months after the event because we'd moved house shortly after and the DVLA had our old address - but claimed could no remember the event or who was driving and heard nothing more (2 yrs ago)...

However if you haven't had it within 15-16 days and the DVLA has your current adress you should be fine - but take a good look at the postmark if it does come....

Listy

Can we just clarify here that it is 14 Days (7 Day week) or 14 Days (Working Week 5 days) i.e. just under 3 working weeks or 2 weeks as we know it.

I only ask as every Git i speak to these days seams to stitch me up with the working week trick :s

T.C

14 days from the date of offence which includes wekends.

brickboy

Also had an informal chat with a dad at my kids' school, who happens to be a traffic cop. His advice is don't rush to sign, return or acknowledge the NIP straight away .... many get lost in the post or go to wrong addresses.

He said wait and see if you get a follow-up, as the police get so many that they don't follow every NIP up as a matter of course, they get revenue from those that sign the NIP and send the cheque, and only follow a % of the rest.

All his opinion etc but there could be truth in there.

hedgehog

The one slight get out you might have, if the leasing company keep the envelope their initial NIP arrives in, is that the law states very clearly that the NIP must be sent at least first class post.

Some of the Scam£ra partnerships have been sending them second class. Now, in as far as I understand it, this only applies to the first NIP which in your case would go to the leasing company. I am also not aware of anyone having actually taken this defence to court and it is important that they are not made aware of the fact that you are using this defence until the last possible moment, otherwise I suspect they may be able to correct it.

If you were to consider this defence then you really need a solicitor who is up to speed with this area of law and you also need access to the envelope the leasing company got the NIP in.

Either way good luck with the defence as this is an utterly foul method of taxation which does nothing but bring the police, the law and a host of others into disrepute.

T.C

I have looked at the regs, and there is nothing that I can find that states that it must go out 1st class. All it states is that it must be posted within 14 days of the alleged offence to the last known registered keeper.

paulr

Thanks for the comments.

trigbert

Think this might just confirm what alter_ego posted but might be of interest....

My mate got trapped by a mobile camera.

The letter (NIP) was sent out over a month after the alleged offence.

He also read about the 14 day rule so thought he was getting out of it. So he contacted a solicitor recommended on www.ukspeedtraps.co.uk.

The solicitor explained the 14 day rule only applies to a "summons" not the NIP.

Trig

alter_ego

You're confusing me, on the one hand you're saying it confirms what I say, then you go on to say the lawyer disputes it.

As to the lawyer's response (if you mean what I think you mean), that culpable nonesense just goes to show how bad many solicitors are with motoring matters. Read the bit of law (RTOA 1988, Section 1(1)(c)) which I posted.
Think about it. Nobody ever gets a summons within 14 days, the scammers often only just mange to despatch the NIP within 14 days and you cannot get a summons before the NIP.
Remember, however, as has been posted by others, the 14 day rule only applies to the first NIP in the chain, the one to the registered keeper.
I don't know if it's possible to get the conviction 'undone', but your friend should certainly be thumping the dumbass lawyer's table about it (assuming that he wasn't stopped at the time).
I don't know if there's any mileage in a complaint to the Law Society; from what I have read, they're as much use as a chocolate firegaurd.

JoanUK300

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear......NEVER expected this Paul!!!!!

Any news yet?

Joan.x