marke8

where did the myth start from that a s4 in 86 went around estoril 2 seconds slower than sennas qualifing time.
in those days i thought f1 cars were 1000 to 1200 hp in qualifing set up.
ive never seen a f1 or a s4 but to seriously believe a rally car could keep up with senna is a joke.
you only have to look at the database of ******* a.k.a youtube to read what some people think as fact.
try tellin someone a modern wrc is a quicker car than a gr b car you'll get shot down in flames.

B0DSKI

iTrader: (17)

Not a chance

D Noble

it wouldnt surprise me, the delta had 430hp in standard(rally ) trim. and weighed just over a tonne, and were probably better at putting the power down than an F1 car,and i am sure the engineers would have wound up the boost a bit for a bit of fun!!

ask which is faster round a modern track, moto gp bike or F1, and most people will say the bike, but a modern F1 car with the superior cornering speed would lap about 20 or so seconds in front.

stage times indicate that the modern wrc car which is restricted to 300 or so bhp, is quicker than the old Group b, as it made engineers work better at using the limited power and thinking of better designs in other componants such as brakes and gearboxes

regards
dave

scoobian

damned fine acceleration time though
"Unofficial figures claimed the S4 could accelerate from 0 to 100 km/h on gravel in just 2.3 seconds"

fivetide

iTrader: (1)

What makes you say it is a myth? As far as i knew the car did a time that would have qualified for 6th place on that year's grid. this was just before Group B with cars pushing stupid power an four wheel drive got banned.

5t.

Mal K

Not a myth, I believe it was a comment made on 'Still Too fast to race' regarding a PR stunt with Henri Toivonens S4. Will try and dig it out.

Henri Toivonen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Although Toivonen is remembered for his exuberant driving style on gravel, he started his career in circuit racing and was also very competitive on tarmac. It is often reported that during the 1986 Rally of Portugal, he drove his Delta S4 at the Estoril track, and recorded a lap time which would have qualified him in sixth position at that year's Formula One Portuguese Grand Prix.[5][6] Eddie Jordan, in whose Formula Three team Toivonen made a few guest appearances, claimed he was certain that Toivonen would have become a winner in Formula One and compared his performances to Ayrton Senna.[7] The annual Race of Champions, originally organised in Toivonen's memory,[8] awards the winning individual driver the Henri Toivonen Memorial Trophy.[9]

chocolate_o_brian

iTrader: (22)

has anyone got any links to these ridiculous powered old skool rally beasts

heard rumours of serious power/fatalities etc in the 80's when motoraport was hardcore. little before my time unfortunately.

172sport

iTrader: (6)

Pure myth, there was an article published in Motorsport news a couple of months ago.

Brun

Choc - you tube has a few good vids

Mal K

The crowd control or lack of it is what gets me, heard reports of drivers getting there cars back for service to find fingers in parts of the bodywork.

YouTube - Group B Rallying - Tribute

DCR59

It's partly true.

The Lancia S4 set a time round the track in the dry. Can't remember what it was.
But it was also a slighly shorter version of the track and not the full length.

But the qualifying for the GP was held in monsoon conditions with rivers of standing water on the track.

So yes comparing the 2 saw the S4 qualify 4th on the grid.

However the previous years GP qualifying was in the dry, and the F1 cars were about 10 seconds a lap quicker than in the wet.

Brun

Still quite impressive though

Prasius

iTrader: (1)

Things haven't improved much in some WRC rounds in the world.

Mal K

Very true, they just cancel the stage now though.

filfy

My god them group b cars were the nutz

chocolate_o_brian

iTrader: (22)

wish i was 10 years older sometimes, so i can remember this stuff

dnc

Fcukin awesome machines ................shame bout the bodykits though. I don't know how many fatalities there were, but christ knows how there weren't loads more
Respect to the drivers (and spectators)
Guess they were very un-PC versions of todays machines.
dnc

Sticky Stuff

Wasn't there something about Mikkola taking a Quattro S2 around an F1 circuit's perimeter track (gravel?) in a similar time to said circuit's F1 lap record?

It rings a faint and distant bell

MooseRacer

Limited to 300bhp yes, but engineers concentrate on mahoosive torque outputs as well as the above.

fivetide

iTrader: (1)

Plus technology just gets better. It's why non turbo restricted F1 cars lap faster than the fully computerised turbo machines of the 80's.

5t.

DaveD

iTrader: (2)

I guess that back in the mid-1980's, F1 cars and GpB rally cars were on a much more equal footing than today - aerodynamics and traction control were a lot less advanced back then!

F1 cars are now all about aerodynamics, reduced transmision losses and fast cornering speeds - outright top speeds have barely changed since the 1970s, but cornering speeds and rates of acceleration / retardation are far greater.

Rally cars are now all about traction and the ability to put the available power down onto the road - thats why you don't see so much of the sliding that existed with 4WD cars up to the mid-1990s, and why the likes of Colin McRae struggled with the 'modern breed'. GpB cars had up to 700BHP available towards the end of their careers, but only had simple mechanical diffs and H-pattern gearboxes to get that to the road - hence lots of wheelspin! Also simple things like centre of gravity were almost afterthoughts on some GpB cars - look at the Audi engine, way out front of the front axle and the 205T16 transverse mid-mounted effort - which made handling (and flying) a bit less than easy!

It would be interesting to know the truth behind the legend - if the Lancia was geared correctly, it could have been quite close. Back in those days it was all about POWER!

Forest Green

Some Group B cars still race nowadays.

Take a look at rallycross!

djmisio85

If a standard audi rs2 can accelerate from 0-30mph in 1.5 sec (same as the formula one cars being made at the time in 1994 - if not 0.1 faster)

then im sure a fully prepped lancia S4 could hold its own on a track against a formula one car.....

borderlinechris

iTrader: (5)

wrc are wanting to go back to rear wheel drive to cut costs,make more exciting etc....

The Zohan

I remember going to the last year these beasts' being allowed to compete, (did not know it at the time) up nr. Nottingham on the RAC rally. Went in my 1980 Escort RS2000 Custom (MKII). Shot some 20 rolls of film.

got cold, got wet and had my eardrums assulted by the noise. That was a great day out!

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

Not having that, F1 cars have way more downforce, which translates into corner speed which is why they are so fast to lap a given circuit.

Turbo2

Just a bit more info regarding rally car development. I was staggered to read that the relatively "weedy" Group A cars such as Sierra Cosworth (2WD) and Delta Integrale 8V were soon setting faster overall rally speeds than the Group B monsters. Indeed the 1000 Lakes (Finland) rally of 1988 proved to be the fastest WRC event ever held at that time, when won by an 8V Integrale with a mere 270/280 BHP. This was only 18 months after Group B was canned for being too fast! There's no need to compare Group B cars with today's WRC machines, since the early Group A cars already had them beat from 1988 onwards. As an avid Group B fan (long-term owner and former member of the now defunct Group B Car Club) this information rather blew the wind out of my over-inflated sails! I had always considered Group B to be the absolute pinnacle of rallying.

It just proves that outright power isn't everything when it comes to winning rallies.

Billgtt

I remember seeing some video footage of Nigel Mansell driving a works 205 T-16, and he said that it accelerated quicker than his F1 car at the time.

A family member of mine worked for most of the WRC teams from the mid 80's to the mid 90's. He was around (working for ARG) during the 1986 season, and he said that the Lancia Delta S4 was, and is, the most stupidly outrageous car he's ever seen.

He told me he remembers one of the first times he saw it in anger. Henri Toivonen arrived at a service area on hot slicks and punched the throttle at 80mph odd, the wheels just span on the spot. At that point he said a lot of his team all looked at each other and said: "we don't have a chance in hell against that!"

He also firmly believes (even to this day) that Group B shouldn't have been banned. And word going around at the time was that the real/main reason it was banned was because it was becoming more popular than F1, and the FIA couldn't have that, as F1 was/is the pinnacle of motorsport. The incidents in Portugal and Corsica (among others), were just used as an excuse.

BULLITT

I liked reading this little gem about the Audi Quattro...



Found on: Top 10: Group B rally cars - Car News | MSN Cars UK

The guys involved were just mental really weren't they....good lads

davyboy

F1 has never been about 0-30 times though.

However fast a car is in a straight line, it's the corner speed that matters.