Pros and cons of front mount intercooler please..
30 September 2014, 09:11 PM
#31
That didn't really answer the question did it?
Water injection can be hugely effective in reducing charge temps. It can be mapped in via ecu so you retain safety and can give a sizeable increase in power and torque.
I wouldn't compare it to a fmic as it's a different engineering principle. However in terms of reducing charge temps it can be very effective.
Water injection can be hugely effective in reducing charge temps. It can be mapped in via ecu so you retain safety and can give a sizeable increase in power and torque.
I wouldn't compare it to a fmic as it's a different engineering principle. However in terms of reducing charge temps it can be very effective.
30 September 2014, 10:47 PM
#32
Funny how you only claimed it was a **** take after it got posted up, tbh i think your just using that as an excuse for being caught opely showing how flawed yoru car is.
But your car was still laggy john compared to mine even with your £2000 top mount
,,,, hahaha
all the actual testing done by Harvey RIP and various other that over 300 horse you start to struggle with heat on a top mount, especialy in realy world environments where you tend to be start stop etc, my hawk had to be backed off cos of heat when it hit high 300's.
Not only that but the air flow baloons up over the bonnet. Wind tunnels have proved that.
Do front mount suffer from heat from rad? to some extent, but heat rises (right where the top mount is), where as the fan and movement pulls the heat back away from from the front mount. so the heat soak to a front mount will be vey limited, especialy compared to a top mount.
But your car was still laggy john compared to mine even with your £2000 top mount
,,,, hahahaall the actual testing done by Harvey RIP and various other that over 300 horse you start to struggle with heat on a top mount, especialy in realy world environments where you tend to be start stop etc, my hawk had to be backed off cos of heat when it hit high 300's.
Not only that but the air flow baloons up over the bonnet. Wind tunnels have proved that.
Do front mount suffer from heat from rad? to some extent, but heat rises (right where the top mount is), where as the fan and movement pulls the heat back away from from the front mount. so the heat soak to a front mount will be vey limited, especialy compared to a top mount.
Do you honestly think if I was concerned about hiding a so called flawed concept I would put that on display at one the highest profile events of the year? You fell for it hook line and sinker and it cracked me up.
My car is laggy? what planet are you on?
Harvey was wrong if he said what you wrote, sorry. A cooling device doesn't care where it is mounted, all it needs is airflow through the core. Hence why I mount cooling devices in every conceivable place on the race cars I build.
Just checked my data logs for Hethel this year, which is the fastest circuit the sprint series visited, ambient was 20 degrees. In the fastest section i was accelerating from 3600rpm in Second gear keeping full throttle through the gears until I hit the brakes at which point it was pulling 7630rpm in Fifth gear, which is a real 134MPH on my sprint tyres. My charge temps climbed 7 degrees centigrade for the full duration of that pull, with the amount it climbed dropping as the speed increased, as you would expect with good air flow, it only climbed 0.9 degrees centigrade during the period in Fifth gear, so yeah, no air getting to the IC at high speed then.
30 September 2014, 11:02 PM
#33
That didn't really answer the question did it?
Water injection can be hugely effective in reducing charge temps. It can be mapped in via ecu so you retain safety and can give a sizeable increase in power and torque.
I wouldn't compare it to a fmic as it's a different engineering principle. However in terms of reducing charge temps it can be very effective.
Water injection can be hugely effective in reducing charge temps. It can be mapped in via ecu so you retain safety and can give a sizeable increase in power and torque.
I wouldn't compare it to a fmic as it's a different engineering principle. However in terms of reducing charge temps it can be very effective.
We used to run pretty big high pressure pumps which are quite noisy, not something I would fancy having in a road car. We used to top the tanks up at each road section too, back when remote servicing and chase cars were legal.
01 October 2014, 01:15 AM
#34
I used to help run a Group A Escort Cosworth rally car back in the 90's when rallying was the business. We ran a Water Injection system on that and it made a big difference in performance. It's important to have it active based on charge temp and boost levels as there is a cross over point where running WI with too low a charge temp and boost level loses you power and torque.
We used to run pretty big high pressure pumps which are quite noisy, not something I would fancy having in a road car. We used to top the tanks up at each road section too, back when remote servicing and chase cars were legal.
We used to run pretty big high pressure pumps which are quite noisy, not something I would fancy having in a road car. We used to top the tanks up at each road section too, back when remote servicing and chase cars were legal.
Hi John
We run WI on our wagon and must admit,I wouldn't run again this on any of my car,on 2.35L we didn't gain anything,this has been strange,on 2.1L we are gained just 15bhp with some bigger torque
About the using high pressure water pump,I think good pumps are used on the AEM kits or on the Aquamist(I think those pumps are Shurflo/Shurflow),those pumps are not very noisy,they're lot quieter than Bosch 044(we have right now under bonnet and I still hear it)
Topping up depends on the jet size,we run only 650cc jet size which has been OK and water lasted for quiet while
John what highest ACT you are seen on the track or when you really pushing the car?
We are run Hybrid FMIC and temps has been OK,but we never have comparison to the Japspeed as we are never have time go on track day or drag strip,but on Japspeed FMIC help us a lot NOS with higher ACT
Thanks,Jura
01 October 2014, 12:31 PM
#36
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01 October 2014, 12:51 PM
#39
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If you ignorant to553rs want to argue then kindly fk off and start another thread....
Between you you have turned this into another ***** waving contest...just like many other threads on SNET.
To all those that have answered my post..THANK YOU.
No would the parasites nicely leave.....?
Between you you have turned this into another ***** waving contest...just like many other threads on SNET.
To all those that have answered my post..THANK YOU.
No would the parasites nicely leave.....?
01 October 2014, 01:04 PM
#40
Scooby Regular
It's a very hot subject mate, back to back test by Harvey (who sadly passed away), scoobyclinic etc have shown the benefits of going FMIC from as little as 300bhp. Initial boost is affected, however once rolling the differences are negligible and you wont notice any difference between the two assuming its set up right. Jophn F wont accept this and went out and spent £2000 on a top mount intercooler so just bangs on about that all the time.
gets mentioend here but so old im struggling to find it
https://www.scoobynet.com/general-te...ce-please.html
I'll see if i can hunt it down, but basicly at 300bhp a FMIC got the power to 320bhp, was back to back test mapped by pat herborn
gets mentioend here but so old im struggling to find it
https://www.scoobynet.com/general-te...ce-please.html
I'll see if i can hunt it down, but basicly at 300bhp a FMIC got the power to 320bhp, was back to back test mapped by pat herborn
01 October 2014, 01:28 PM
#41
Back on topic.
So for sake of the arguement, if I were to change my STI TMIC on my 334bhp 2.5 engine to a FMIC I would undoubtedly see a slight delay in my boost graph due to longer intercooler pipe work.
This will also impact on my 0-60 times which would ever so slightly increase. So I may see a slight decrease in performance by just changing to FMIC.
That said, I MAY be able to run slightly more boost as a result of the FMIC.
Am interested. In Shaun's thread he took the TMIC quite a way before going FMIC.
Interesting argurement this as there are certainly pro's and con's to both sides.
So for sake of the arguement, if I were to change my STI TMIC on my 334bhp 2.5 engine to a FMIC I would undoubtedly see a slight delay in my boost graph due to longer intercooler pipe work.
This will also impact on my 0-60 times which would ever so slightly increase. So I may see a slight decrease in performance by just changing to FMIC.
That said, I MAY be able to run slightly more boost as a result of the FMIC.
Am interested. In Shaun's thread he took the TMIC quite a way before going FMIC.
Interesting argurement this as there are certainly pro's and con's to both sides.
01 October 2014, 01:55 PM
#42
In the lower power ranges there's probably not a lot to choose between the TMIC & FMIC under normal road driving conditions. Where the FMIC scores over the TMIC is when the car has been stuck in very slow moving traffic for any length of time. Pull over, open the bonnet and stick you hand on the top mount; it's very hot. Once you get rolling again the perceived wisdom is then to drive steadily for a few miles until the TMIC cools down, before driving the car hard.
Do the same hand test with a FMIC and it's as cold as makes no difference. Although the pipework will have heated up the cold FMIC will bring temperatures back to normal far quicker than a TMIC, especially if the bonnet scoop is still in position.
On a race track, where the car is never chugging along slowly, the difference is perhaps not so clear cut until you get into high power applications.
Do the same hand test with a FMIC and it's as cold as makes no difference. Although the pipework will have heated up the cold FMIC will bring temperatures back to normal far quicker than a TMIC, especially if the bonnet scoop is still in position.
On a race track, where the car is never chugging along slowly, the difference is perhaps not so clear cut until you get into high power applications.
01 October 2014, 02:08 PM
#43
Yeh as much as I do want to upgrade to FMIC this is kinda swinging me back to the TMIC in all honesty. I don't sit in traffic jams in baking hot days in my car and then thrash it straight after. I now the issues with heat soak, but in the real world it's not an every day driving issue to worry about.
I totally agree that for HIGH power builds or track focused cars then FMIC is the way forward.
I totally agree that for HIGH power builds or track focused cars then FMIC is the way forward.
01 October 2014, 02:38 PM
#46
Found this quote from Harvey
However, on an STi 3 or 4 and indeed 5 or 6, by the time you get to 300 plus bhp it is time to think about an efficient front mount. Certainly by 320 bhp.
The actual swap over point for a version 1 or 2 car is probably 280 bhp.
Version 3 - 6 somewhere between 300 and 320 bhp.
New Age cars, generally 350 bhp upwards.
The move to an STi TMIC on a New Age WRX is a waste of time unless you also fit the undertray. Similarly on a Classic you need the undertray. At 380 bhp on the STi New Age TMIC there are good gains moving to an efficient (Hybrid) FMIC. I have the figures to prove all this.
Trying to fit an STi 5 or 6 or New Age STi TMIC to a version 1 or 2 car is a complete waste of time unless you don't mind spending your own time for modest gains, including bashing in the bulk head.
Fitting an STi New Age TMIC to version 3 to 6 cars has very limited benefits for a lot of effort and an efficient FMIC beyond 350 bhp is the way to go on New Age.
Classics running 300-320 bhp should already be looking at an efficient FMIC.
In actual road testing with an STi 3 Wagon, this had ACTs in excess of 70 degrees C, the limit of the guage, on the standard turbo and top mount sprinting from 0-100 mph. An STi 8 top mount with undertray brought the temperatures down into the high 40s or 50C bracket.
At a later date, after further modifications, changing from STi 8 TMIC to Hybrid GT FMIC resulted in a power increase from 392 bhp with the top mount to 401 bhp with the front mount with no other modifications and 410 bhp with mapping. A GT2 may have shown an additional couple of bhp.
ACTs on the rolling road in the Winter were low 20s with the FMIC and with the TMIC immediately before the changeover temperatures were in the 40s (on a colder day).
Without fitting the STi 8 undertray arrangement fitting the STi 8 TMIC was a waste of time whether New Age or Classic and even done properly not the best option.
HTH.
However, on an STi 3 or 4 and indeed 5 or 6, by the time you get to 300 plus bhp it is time to think about an efficient front mount. Certainly by 320 bhp.
The actual swap over point for a version 1 or 2 car is probably 280 bhp.
Version 3 - 6 somewhere between 300 and 320 bhp.
New Age cars, generally 350 bhp upwards.
The move to an STi TMIC on a New Age WRX is a waste of time unless you also fit the undertray. Similarly on a Classic you need the undertray. At 380 bhp on the STi New Age TMIC there are good gains moving to an efficient (Hybrid) FMIC. I have the figures to prove all this.
Trying to fit an STi 5 or 6 or New Age STi TMIC to a version 1 or 2 car is a complete waste of time unless you don't mind spending your own time for modest gains, including bashing in the bulk head.
Fitting an STi New Age TMIC to version 3 to 6 cars has very limited benefits for a lot of effort and an efficient FMIC beyond 350 bhp is the way to go on New Age.
Classics running 300-320 bhp should already be looking at an efficient FMIC.
In actual road testing with an STi 3 Wagon, this had ACTs in excess of 70 degrees C, the limit of the guage, on the standard turbo and top mount sprinting from 0-100 mph. An STi 8 top mount with undertray brought the temperatures down into the high 40s or 50C bracket.
At a later date, after further modifications, changing from STi 8 TMIC to Hybrid GT FMIC resulted in a power increase from 392 bhp with the top mount to 401 bhp with the front mount with no other modifications and 410 bhp with mapping. A GT2 may have shown an additional couple of bhp.
ACTs on the rolling road in the Winter were low 20s with the FMIC and with the TMIC immediately before the changeover temperatures were in the 40s (on a colder day).
Without fitting the STi 8 undertray arrangement fitting the STi 8 TMIC was a waste of time whether New Age or Classic and even done properly not the best option.
HTH.
01 October 2014, 06:29 PM
#47
I used to help run a Group A Escort Cosworth rally car back in the 90's when rallying was the business. We ran a Water Injection system on that and it made a big difference in performance. It's important to have it active based on charge temp and boost levels as there is a cross over point where running WI with too low a charge temp and boost level loses you power and torque.
We used to run pretty big high pressure pumps which are quite noisy, not something I would fancy having in a road car. We used to top the tanks up at each road section too, back when remote servicing and chase cars were legal.
We used to run pretty big high pressure pumps which are quite noisy, not something I would fancy having in a road car. We used to top the tanks up at each road section too, back when remote servicing and chase cars were legal.
. I'm still dubious about the relative merits of an exceptionally high quality top mount versus front mount. You cannot defy physics, physics states heat rises therefore have a cooling device atop lots of rising heat is a flawed practice. I accept the very best cores are exceptionally good at dissipating heat but by going front mount you eliminate that issue in one fell swoop.
Furthermore the front of the car is being smacked with lots of lovely cooling air, so not only are you away from the rising heat you also are in the optimum position for the cooling air.
01 October 2014, 07:42 PM
#48
I'm sure water injection came as a standard fitment on an American car some while ago. The only problem they encountered was dozy customers who forget to refill the water when it ran out .
I'm still dubious about the relative merits of an exceptionally high quality top mount versus front mount. You cannot defy physics, physics states heat rises therefore have a cooling device atop lots of rising heat is a flawed practice. I accept the very best cores are exceptionally good at dissipating heat but by going front mount you eliminate that issue in one fell swoop.
Furthermore the front of the car is being smacked with lots of lovely cooling air, so not only are you away from the rising heat you also are in the optimum position for the cooling air.
. I'm still dubious about the relative merits of an exceptionally high quality top mount versus front mount. You cannot defy physics, physics states heat rises therefore have a cooling device atop lots of rising heat is a flawed practice. I accept the very best cores are exceptionally good at dissipating heat but by going front mount you eliminate that issue in one fell swoop.
Furthermore the front of the car is being smacked with lots of lovely cooling air, so not only are you away from the rising heat you also are in the optimum position for the cooling air.
Interestingly enough, back in the day when the Saab turbo was considered a fast car, one of the west London dealers experimented with water injection and offered it as an upgrade. Keeping the water tank filled was its biggest problem and the idea, although it worked well enough, was eventually discontinued.
01 October 2014, 09:23 PM
#49
I'm sure water injection came as a standard fitment on an American car some while ago. The only problem they encountered was dozy customers who forget to refill the water when it ran out .
I'm still dubious about the relative merits of an exceptionally high quality top mount versus front mount. You cannot defy physics, physics states heat rises therefore have a cooling device atop lots of rising heat is a flawed practice. I accept the very best cores are exceptionally good at dissipating heat but by going front mount you eliminate that issue in one fell swoop.
Furthermore the front of the car is being smacked with lots of lovely cooling air, so not only are you away from the rising heat you also are in the optimum position for the cooling air.
. I'm still dubious about the relative merits of an exceptionally high quality top mount versus front mount. You cannot defy physics, physics states heat rises therefore have a cooling device atop lots of rising heat is a flawed practice. I accept the very best cores are exceptionally good at dissipating heat but by going front mount you eliminate that issue in one fell swoop.
Furthermore the front of the car is being smacked with lots of lovely cooling air, so not only are you away from the rising heat you also are in the optimum position for the cooling air.
What matters with a cores performance isn't what most people think, having a cooling core sat in front of another (FMIC with water radiator and maybe air con condenser assembly) is the worst situation you can have, you want a single air path in and a single air path out.
It's common on racing cars to have the cooling cores almost flat to the floor, some of that is weight distribution but a lot of that is drag reduction and increasing the efficiency of the core by slowing the airflow down as it hits the core then speeding it back up as it exits.
Worst case scenario for a TMIC is always going to be when queuing in heavy traffic or waiting in the queue for the start of a sprint run, but even in this situation it really isn't an issue in my experience. Looking at the data logs from FMIC cars in this scenario they can be just as bad, some are significantly worse. There have been no attempts to heat shield my turbo, its got no turbo blanket, no ceramic coating and no metal heat shield, yet I win sprints. If that doesn't tell you some people are overegging the pudding then I'm not sure what will. (one day I will get round to improving that)
You ask people like Andy Forrest what he thinks about TMIC equipped cars, their benefits don't show up as much on a dyno as they do in the real world. What you can never show on a dyno is the through the gear performance of the two setups, the TMIC equipped car will always be better so long as you have the thermal capacity required for the power level you are running. If you have the power levels most people on here will have, you don't need an expensive setup like mine, or a FMIC, a decent OEM install will do the job nicely.
Like everything, spec the parts to suit the whole package, if the car doesn't need it, don't go hacking it up and junking a config that is very well engineered. It's often quite amusing to see people bang on about needing a FMIC, yet these same people stick an induction kit in the engine bay sucking all the hot air in from the headers, turbo, water radiator and intercooler.
01 October 2014, 09:54 PM
#50
Hi John
John what highest ACT you are seen on the track or when you really pushing the car?
We are run Hybrid FMIC and temps has been OK,but we never have comparison to the Japspeed as we are never have time go on track day or drag strip,but on Japspeed FMIC help us a lot NOS with higher ACT
Thanks,Jura
John what highest ACT you are seen on the track or when you really pushing the car?
We are run Hybrid FMIC and temps has been OK,but we never have comparison to the Japspeed as we are never have time go on track day or drag strip,but on Japspeed FMIC help us a lot NOS with higher ACT
Thanks,Jura
When Paul at Zen mapped my Syvecs on the rollers earlier in the year, he set my Charge Temp correction to remove 0.5 degrees of ignition at 40 degrees, -1.5 degrees at 50 degrees. I manage to keep the charge temps below the 40 degrees threshold even on the sprints, it was running between 30 degrees and 38 degrees at Hethel in 20 degree ambients from a standing start having queued up for 10+ minutes, hitting 134MPH at the fastest point, which is quicker than a lot of race circuits in the UK.
I gave the car a decent run on the Nurburgring GP circuit a while back though, think it was 20 minute sessions and in that I was passing Porsche 997 RS race spec cars. I lapped some of the Porsches.
During that run the charge temp was only a few degrees above ambient. It was a relatively cool day, I'd expect you to see maybe 10 degrees above ambient so long as you arnt screwing the turbo to within an inch of its life and over speeding it.I did a log of the run home tonight, starting by driving through a busy town at 30MPH in stop start traffic where charge temps were 7 degrees max above ambient. Once out in the country I could open the car up and get some airflow through the core, charge temps dropped to 1 degrees above ambient whilst cruising in 5th and 6th, there are a couple of 2nd gear to 6th gear blasts out of tight hairpins and the charge temp climbed 8 degrees through them, dropping quickly back to 1 degree above ambient once the hard acceleration was over.
Hope that helps.
01 October 2014, 10:01 PM
#51
The further away from the ground the cooler the air is, which is why you always put air intakes as high as practically possible on a racing car.
What matters with a cores performance isn't what most people think, having a cooling core sat in front of another (FMIC with water radiator and maybe air con condenser assembly) is the worst situation you can have, you want a single air path in and a single air path out.
It's common on racing cars to have the cooling cores almost flat to the floor, some of that is weight distribution but a lot of that is drag reduction and increasing the efficiency of the core by slowing the airflow down as it hits the core then speeding it back up as it exits.
Worst case scenario for a TMIC is always going to be when queuing in heavy traffic or waiting in the queue for the start of a sprint run, but even in this situation it really isn't an issue in my experience. Looking at the data logs from FMIC cars in this scenario they can be just as bad, some are significantly worse. There have been no attempts to heat shield my turbo, its got no turbo blanket, no ceramic coating and no metal heat shield, yet I win sprints. If that doesn't tell you some people are overegging the pudding then I'm not sure what will. (one day I will get round to improving that)
You ask people like Andy Forrest what he thinks about TMIC equipped cars, their benefits don't show up as much on a dyno as they do in the real world. What you can never show on a dyno is the through the gear performance of the two setups, the TMIC equipped car will always be better so long as you have the thermal capacity required for the power level you are running. If you have the power levels most people on here will have, you don't need an expensive setup like mine, or a FMIC, a decent OEM install will do the job nicely.
Like everything, spec the parts to suit the whole package, if the car doesn't need it, don't go hacking it up and junking a config that is very well engineered. It's often quite amusing to see people bang on about needing a FMIC, yet these same people stick an induction kit in the engine bay sucking all the hot air in from the headers, turbo, water radiator and intercooler.
What matters with a cores performance isn't what most people think, having a cooling core sat in front of another (FMIC with water radiator and maybe air con condenser assembly) is the worst situation you can have, you want a single air path in and a single air path out.
It's common on racing cars to have the cooling cores almost flat to the floor, some of that is weight distribution but a lot of that is drag reduction and increasing the efficiency of the core by slowing the airflow down as it hits the core then speeding it back up as it exits.
Worst case scenario for a TMIC is always going to be when queuing in heavy traffic or waiting in the queue for the start of a sprint run, but even in this situation it really isn't an issue in my experience. Looking at the data logs from FMIC cars in this scenario they can be just as bad, some are significantly worse. There have been no attempts to heat shield my turbo, its got no turbo blanket, no ceramic coating and no metal heat shield, yet I win sprints. If that doesn't tell you some people are overegging the pudding then I'm not sure what will. (one day I will get round to improving that)
You ask people like Andy Forrest what he thinks about TMIC equipped cars, their benefits don't show up as much on a dyno as they do in the real world. What you can never show on a dyno is the through the gear performance of the two setups, the TMIC equipped car will always be better so long as you have the thermal capacity required for the power level you are running. If you have the power levels most people on here will have, you don't need an expensive setup like mine, or a FMIC, a decent OEM install will do the job nicely.
Like everything, spec the parts to suit the whole package, if the car doesn't need it, don't go hacking it up and junking a config that is very well engineered. It's often quite amusing to see people bang on about needing a FMIC, yet these same people stick an induction kit in the engine bay sucking all the hot air in from the headers, turbo, water radiator and intercooler.
. Ultimately I think the it's the cost factor John. As an engineer you look for the optimum solution for an application, cost is secondary to a certain extent. If we could have quality engineered (like Chevron's top mount) products at a reasonable cost then they'd sell like hot cakes. Unfortunately the plethora of cheaper (and inferior) Far Eastern bits are a much bigger lure for punters.
People told Brunel he was a madman and a fantacist, he would never succeed. He proved them wrong.
01 October 2014, 10:05 PM
#52
Out of interest, How many other car manufacturers fit an intercooler on top of the engine.
Other than the GTI-R I can't think of any. Surely if using a top mounted cooler is superior far more manufacturers and primarily performance car manufacturers would use this setup.
Another thing to remember here Is that John isn't using any old subaru top mount. His intercooler costs in excess of £2000 which to just about every other snet user is out of reach. I don't think it's a fair comparison when the OP was asking about standard subaru top mounts.
No standard subaru top mount will out perform a decent branded front mount with good mapping.
Other than the GTI-R I can't think of any. Surely if using a top mounted cooler is superior far more manufacturers and primarily performance car manufacturers would use this setup.
Another thing to remember here Is that John isn't using any old subaru top mount. His intercooler costs in excess of £2000 which to just about every other snet user is out of reach. I don't think it's a fair comparison when the OP was asking about standard subaru top mounts.
No standard subaru top mount will out perform a decent branded front mount with good mapping.
01 October 2014, 10:10 PM
#53
Out of interest, How many other car manufacturers fit an intercooler on top of the engine.
Other than the GTI-R I can't think of any. Surely if using a top mounted cooler is superior far more manufacturers and primarily performance car manufacturers would use this setup.
Another thing to remember here Is that John isn't using any old subaru top mount. His intercooler costs in excess of £2000 which to just about every other snet user is out of reach. I don't think it's a fair comparison when the OP was asking about standard subaru top mounts.
No standard subaru top mount will out perform a decent branded front mount with good mapping.
Other than the GTI-R I can't think of any. Surely if using a top mounted cooler is superior far more manufacturers and primarily performance car manufacturers would use this setup.
Another thing to remember here Is that John isn't using any old subaru top mount. His intercooler costs in excess of £2000 which to just about every other snet user is out of reach. I don't think it's a fair comparison when the OP was asking about standard subaru top mounts.
No standard subaru top mount will out perform a decent branded front mount with good mapping.
01 October 2014, 10:23 PM
#55
I'm well aware of the fact my TMIC is not the norm, but put that to one side and apply what I have written to the requirements you have with your own power package and you will find a large number of people are wasting money and losing performance going to a FMIC, which are quite often utter garbage products.
I'm not suggesting everyone should use what I have, quite the opposite, I also understand the place there is for some cheaper FMIC products, but they have their downsides as well as their benefits and are quite often not required.
My initial response was to the continuous barrage of nonsense a particular person puts on here and when he uses me as an example it is sometimes appropriate to correct the guy. No doubt I don't see most of what he writes as I rarely visit scoobynet these days.
Apologies if that's upset the OP.
The engine layout of a Subaru lends its way to packaging the engine bay the way they have, with a low mounted flat engine and a turbo mounted low and to the rear there is plenty of room for an efficient cooling package above the engine. The GTIR was a relatively poor packaging design by comparison because you have a tall conventional engine with the core sat almost touching the cam cover, so the exit flow is poor by comparison to a Subaru, and its the exit flow from a core that is key to its efficiency.
I'm not suggesting everyone should use what I have, quite the opposite, I also understand the place there is for some cheaper FMIC products, but they have their downsides as well as their benefits and are quite often not required.
My initial response was to the continuous barrage of nonsense a particular person puts on here and when he uses me as an example it is sometimes appropriate to correct the guy. No doubt I don't see most of what he writes as I rarely visit scoobynet these days.
Apologies if that's upset the OP.
The engine layout of a Subaru lends its way to packaging the engine bay the way they have, with a low mounted flat engine and a turbo mounted low and to the rear there is plenty of room for an efficient cooling package above the engine. The GTIR was a relatively poor packaging design by comparison because you have a tall conventional engine with the core sat almost touching the cam cover, so the exit flow is poor by comparison to a Subaru, and its the exit flow from a core that is key to its efficiency.
01 October 2014, 10:56 PM
#56
I'm well aware of the fact my TMIC is not the norm, but put that to one side and apply what I have written to the requirements you have with your own power package and you will find a large number of people are wasting money and losing performance going to a FMIC, which are quite often utter garbage products.
I'm not suggesting everyone should use what I have, quite the opposite, I also understand the place there is for some cheaper FMIC products, but they have their downsides as well as their benefits and are quite often not required.
My initial response was to the continuous barrage of nonsense a particular person puts on here and when he uses me as an example it is sometimes appropriate to correct the guy. No doubt I don't see most of what he writes as I rarely visit scoobynet these days.
Apologies if that's upset the OP.
The engine layout of a Subaru lends its way to packaging the engine bay the way they have, with a low mounted flat engine and a turbo mounted low and to the rear there is plenty of room for an efficient cooling package above the engine. The GTIR was a relatively poor packaging design by comparison because you have a tall conventional engine with the core sat almost touching the cam cover, so the exit flow is poor by comparison to a Subaru, and its the exit flow from a core that is key to its efficiency.
I'm not suggesting everyone should use what I have, quite the opposite, I also understand the place there is for some cheaper FMIC products, but they have their downsides as well as their benefits and are quite often not required.
My initial response was to the continuous barrage of nonsense a particular person puts on here and when he uses me as an example it is sometimes appropriate to correct the guy. No doubt I don't see most of what he writes as I rarely visit scoobynet these days.
Apologies if that's upset the OP.
The engine layout of a Subaru lends its way to packaging the engine bay the way they have, with a low mounted flat engine and a turbo mounted low and to the rear there is plenty of room for an efficient cooling package above the engine. The GTIR was a relatively poor packaging design by comparison because you have a tall conventional engine with the core sat almost touching the cam cover, so the exit flow is poor by comparison to a Subaru, and its the exit flow from a core that is key to its efficiency.
So are you going to name and shame these garbage FMIC products John? Harvey's Hybrid FMIcs were relatively inexpensive (and more to the point I have one fitted). Are these included in the garbage list? And if you are reluctant to name the rubbish ones, how about naming the good ones?
02 October 2014, 06:48 AM
#58
Hi Jura, I don't often do any continuous track driving in the current car, my runs are the worst case scenario where I'm queuing for 10 minutes + then blasting the car hard for a couple of minutes, so my charge temps are always a little higher than you are going to see when doing multiple laps of a circuit. My TMIC package was originally designed with a 500BHP Time Attack car in mind though and it works incredibly well on a circuit.
When Paul at Zen mapped my Syvecs on the rollers earlier in the year, he set my Charge Temp correction to remove 0.5 degrees of ignition at 40 degrees, -1.5 degrees at 50 degrees. I manage to keep the charge temps below the 40 degrees threshold even on the sprints, it was running between 30 degrees and 38 degrees at Hethel in 20 degree ambients from a standing start having queued up for 10+ minutes, hitting 134MPH at the fastest point, which is quicker than a lot of race circuits in the UK.
I gave the car a decent run on the Nurburgring GP circuit a while back though, think it was 20 minute sessions and in that I was passing Porsche 997 RS race spec cars. I lapped some of the Porsches. During that run the charge temp was only a few degrees above ambient. It was a relatively cool day, I'd expect you to see maybe 10 degrees above ambient so long as you arnt screwing the turbo to within an inch of its life and over speeding it.
I did a log of the run home tonight, starting by driving through a busy town at 30MPH in stop start traffic where charge temps were 7 degrees max above ambient. Once out in the country I could open the car up and get some airflow through the core, charge temps dropped to 1 degrees above ambient whilst cruising in 5th and 6th, there are a couple of 2nd gear to 6th gear blasts out of tight hairpins and the charge temp climbed 8 degrees through them, dropping quickly back to 1 degree above ambient once the hard acceleration was over.
Hope that helps.
When Paul at Zen mapped my Syvecs on the rollers earlier in the year, he set my Charge Temp correction to remove 0.5 degrees of ignition at 40 degrees, -1.5 degrees at 50 degrees. I manage to keep the charge temps below the 40 degrees threshold even on the sprints, it was running between 30 degrees and 38 degrees at Hethel in 20 degree ambients from a standing start having queued up for 10+ minutes, hitting 134MPH at the fastest point, which is quicker than a lot of race circuits in the UK.
I gave the car a decent run on the Nurburgring GP circuit a while back though, think it was 20 minute sessions and in that I was passing Porsche 997 RS race spec cars. I lapped some of the Porsches.
During that run the charge temp was only a few degrees above ambient. It was a relatively cool day, I'd expect you to see maybe 10 degrees above ambient so long as you arnt screwing the turbo to within an inch of its life and over speeding it.I did a log of the run home tonight, starting by driving through a busy town at 30MPH in stop start traffic where charge temps were 7 degrees max above ambient. Once out in the country I could open the car up and get some airflow through the core, charge temps dropped to 1 degrees above ambient whilst cruising in 5th and 6th, there are a couple of 2nd gear to 6th gear blasts out of tight hairpins and the charge temp climbed 8 degrees through them, dropping quickly back to 1 degree above ambient once the hard acceleration was over.
Hope that helps.
Thanks for detailed reply,really appreciated
That's nice ACT on TMIC,agree I can't compare yours TMIC to standard TMIC,but still great ACT
We are seen much higher ACT on the track,but usually we are drive in very hot weather(above 28C) and on the track I've seen highest at 50C and on the dag strip when outside has been close to 35C we are seen close to 55C which I've said to my brother we will not run anymore or yes bit later when outside temps will drops under 30C,simply Syvecs pulled down timing and we are not improved at all and this has been on Japspeed FMIC at 490bhp with NOS,NOS cooled down bit ACT but not so much as I've expected plus we run too WI,but as said in previous reply has been waste of money
Thanks again,Jura
02 October 2014, 07:51 AM
#59
This would be ideal but impractical for most people. Having fitted a FMIC few of us have the time, inclination or cash to experiment by fitting others for comparison. And other people's opinions are usually based on the FMIC they have fitted, very few will have tried several so their opinion is biased and therefore worthless. Bar and plate or tube and fin? There doesn't seem to be agreement amongst the 'experts' even on this subject. With so little actual data available it's little wonder that many go for the cheap options and hope for the best!
02 October 2014, 11:22 PM
#60
What was your Water Injection strategy Jura?
You should have it so it switches the WI on when your charge temperature goes above 42 degrees C, and switches it off below 38 degrees C, you should also not trigger it until you have at least 7 psi of boost.
If you run WI at lower boost than that or with lower charge temps than that you may lose power. Those figures came out of the testing done on the Ford Group A and WRC rally programs.
You can buy a charge temp gauge very cheaply, you could even just use a multi meter with a thermocouple and do a temporary install. Then go do some running and see what your Charge Temps are. It's not expensive or difficult to do some testing of your own.
On my STi5 RA I used to use extensively on the nurburgring back in the early 2000's I rigged up a digital display from a thermocouple after the TMIC, as I was concerned about the stories of no airflow at speed to the TMIC. I proved those scare stories were just that, stories, charge temps were very nice even at 150MPH plus, which I used to hit every lap. I've driven many thousands of miles in Subaru's on circuits over the years, anything from an Impreza Sport to the Zen Time Attack Pro Championship winning car, they all need different solutions, keep an open mind is the best advice I can give.
If you do rig up your own test, at least you can then see the real effect of your changes.
You should have it so it switches the WI on when your charge temperature goes above 42 degrees C, and switches it off below 38 degrees C, you should also not trigger it until you have at least 7 psi of boost.
If you run WI at lower boost than that or with lower charge temps than that you may lose power. Those figures came out of the testing done on the Ford Group A and WRC rally programs.
You can buy a charge temp gauge very cheaply, you could even just use a multi meter with a thermocouple and do a temporary install. Then go do some running and see what your Charge Temps are. It's not expensive or difficult to do some testing of your own.
On my STi5 RA I used to use extensively on the nurburgring back in the early 2000's I rigged up a digital display from a thermocouple after the TMIC, as I was concerned about the stories of no airflow at speed to the TMIC. I proved those scare stories were just that, stories, charge temps were very nice even at 150MPH plus, which I used to hit every lap. I've driven many thousands of miles in Subaru's on circuits over the years, anything from an Impreza Sport to the Zen Time Attack Pro Championship winning car, they all need different solutions, keep an open mind is the best advice I can give.
If you do rig up your own test, at least you can then see the real effect of your changes.