AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

Yesterday evening, during my normal and rather sedate drive home, my engine developed a rattle. Today, on the advice of my dealer, I had the car recovered to a garage where it's been diagnosed as suffering from a probable big-end failure

The car is a UK supplied MY00, 61k miles, and has been serviced by a main dealer on the dot of every service interval - so, it only had the 60k service a month ago. I've had the car from new, so I know it's never been abused. The only engine mod is the PPP which was fitted when the car was 1 yr old.

Needless to say I'm absolutely gutted and need to consider my options from a practical, financial and legal point of view. I'd really appreciate any advice.

Has this happened to anyone else? If it's happened to you, please would you mind sharing the outcome?

The car is out of warranty, but obviously hasn't provided service which could be described as 'reasonable' - does anyone know where I stand with regard to consumer protection law?

I'm located in Farnborough, Hants. My nearest Subaru dealer is Bell & Colvill and my nearest independent specialist is, I believe, Power Engineering in Uxbridge. Any comments on either of these (or any other viable options) before I decide where to have the work done?

I appreciate that it's hard to tell until the engine's been stripped to find out the extent of the damage, but can anyone suggest whether it's likely to be worth having the engine repaired at all or whether I'd be better off trying to locate another engine?

Why has my car done this to me when I've looked after it so well?

All support and advice gratefully received - I think I need a beer or twelve now

Andy.

Mellowpeas

It all depends on which oil has been used in the car,
when you say regular service how often is that, personally for a turbo car it has to be oil changed 5000 miles at the peak, i know dealers say 8k or even 10k but thats killing the car in my opinion, and finally have you been warming & cooling the car on journeys?


Don't rush for a rebuild or a new/used engine, analyse the fault & if its not repairable you have no other choice.

Is the engine knocking when you rev it?, any smoke?

206CC

Not an unusual problem soon after a service..

There is an internal memo from IM that is referenced to this problem.. I'll dig it out if I can..

Seen a few cars that this has happened too.. 1 was a P1, had a 30K service, 7 miles later big end failure, new short block.. Doh!..

Ex Dealer Scooby Tech

greg.g

I believe that failiure after a service has occured is sometimes connected with the dealer not filling the filter with oil.
It cant do an engine any good when it is turned over and deprived of oil for a few seconds

The big ends failed on my MY98 with around 38k and FSSH

Luckily , my car was still under warranty, so it did not cost me a penny.
And i got a new clutch out of it too

I was told by the dealer that the fault could have been there since manufacture, and only just failed.

Anyway, good luck m8

Greg

Speedmeister

Scary! Commiserations mate.
Presumably this sort of thing is mercifully rare isn't it??
Does anyone have a handle on how often relatively unmodded engines fail?

SUBTYPER

I have been told that Big end failure can be related to the standard oil pump failing and starving the engine of oil. Thats why some people buy a modified oil pump and also a oil pressure gauge to monitor for pressure drop or increase. I have a MY98 STI modified and havent had the problem yet but am getting a oil pressure gauge fitted and modified oil pump when I get the cambelt changed. Apparently Roger Clarke Motorsport sell the modified Oil Pumps.

wrxtankie

My dealer had 2 demo cars have their big ends/rods fail on new (at the time) bug eye sti´s

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

Hi all

Thanks for the votes of support -I do hope that it's mercifully rare. What upsets me the most is that I've always used franchised dealers for servicing, I bought the car from a UK dealer and I've fitted the only Subaru approved performance mod. All these have cost me a great deal more than importing the car and using 3rd party services, yet at the end of the day I'm still stuck with a dead engine. Next time I'll import the car, mod the heck out of the engine and thrash it every day - at least I won't feel so cheated when it blows up.

Right now it's not the technical reason for the failure that interests me - I'll worry about that when the engine's been rebuilt. I'm more concerned with getting it back on the road at minimum cost to myself. Options:

1) Try to get Subaru UK, IM or the dealer to admit that they screwed up (if, indeed, they did in some way). Difficult, but should get the car fixed for free.
2) Prove in court that someone screwed up. Possibly even more difficult and could just land me with another bill on top of the engine rebuild. Of course, both these options rely on demonstrating that the car was defective or that proper procedures weren't followed, and I've no evidence that this is the case.
3) Pay the dealer to strip and rebuild the engine. Expensive but straightforward.
4) Pay someone else to strip and rebuild the engine. Likely to be cheaper, but less comeback if it's later proven that the car was defective.

There's a lot of urban myths floating around which I'm anxious to side-step - but if anyone has a story about their own car failing in a similar way then I'd be very keen to hear it. Any takers?

I posted another thread in Drivetrain here - please reply there instead of here so I can keep everything together. I wasn't thinking straight earlier and posted two threads, can't think why I might have been distracted

Cheers
Andy.

DJB

Going down the legal action route is a risky business. You're outwith the warranty period on both counts, mileage and age. The onus would be on you to prove that the garage is liable based on poor workmanship - this will be difficult to prove. Legally, IM probably owe you nothing.

I would suggest that you get the dealer to strip the engine and repair it. That way, if there is a defective part, you might be able to recoup at least some of the costs from IM as a goodwill gesture. A letter to the chief at IM with mention of your loyalty to the brand and to the franchise dealer wouldn't do any harm.

Good luck.

D.

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

I guess the issue there is that I can probably save a fair bit by going to an independent garage, although in this case IM are less likely to feel the need to contribute anything. I'd love to write the stroppy letters, wait for the replies and argue, but in the meantime I'm travelling everywhere by taxi or by whatever nasty little tin box I can hire. I want my Scooby back...

deano

Andy.

It's happened to loads of cars. There must be a connection with the failures and service, my guess is it's something to do with the ecu reset and the possibility of the car "re-learning" the ignition settings.

My car suffered shortly after a service and the garage (who is a well known specialist and repaired loads of big end failures) said it is down to det.

I found a replacement engine and dropped it in, sold the car and got an evo. You could spend loads of money rebuilding yours and it might just happen again.

cryptwalk

Same here.

Comiserations.

sc00by-d00by

These posts are making me extremely nervous about picking up my MY00 with 50k on the clock next month...

owbow

have a subaru dealer rebuild an engine?

they'll just replace every single part surely not having machining tools etc?

engine rebuilds are the territory of engine rebuilders... or me!

(Celica GTFour engine in bits in my garage right now...)

condolences mate, personally my 1st port of call might be whoever just serviced the car... they may just come up trumps and admit responsibility... even if there's no way to prove it's down to them.

do you have an oil light showing at idle / any way to check it IS big ends?

ps. why do people need a short engine replacement for big and failure anyway?

Owain

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

Sounds like it might be worth starting to compile a database of whose car has blown up and under what circumstances.

There's no easy way to know exactly what's gone wrong at this stage. The was recovered to a Subaru garage and has been briefly inspected by their chief mechanic, but nothing's been dismantled yet. Maybe it's not that bad after all, but apparently it's a full day's work to strip the engine just to find out what actually HAS happened.

I'll be phoning round a few garages today (Scoobyclinic, Powerstation, TSL etc) for quotes - wish me luck....

Subaru_WR1

This happened to my P1 at 28k it was put down to an oil pump failure, fortunately all covered under warranty. One of the reasons I have decided to trade in for the WR1. Just gives peace of mind...

flatfourburble

:$ I'm a bit worried as I'm think of gettin a classic scooby YM00, is there any signs for this before it happens? anyway to check before you buy??

I always though that Scooby engines were fairly robust if serviced correctly is that just a myth?

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

In my case, there was no warning whatsoever. Have a word with Graham at TSL - he sees these failures all the time and knows all about them. I just had a lengthy chat which was quite enlightening...

TopBanana

Following on from your phonecall with Graham, are there any preventative measures or warning signs we should be aware of Andy?

flatfourburble

I'll second that question

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

Andy

Sorry to hear about this It is absolutely gutting when it happens

Mine went in November but was caused by a faulty MAF sensor, allowing det to happen, hence killing the engine (crank,rods, piston etc etc). Re-Bitten Hero the same.

At the time there was a lonnggg post about it (around Christmas) with information from a number of people that this had happened to. The majority were caused by faulty MAF on the MY99/00 models.

Get B&C to check the MAF - would be interested to know if that was the cause.



For those wondering about buying scoobs...

It is probably best to replace your MAF every year & not use an induction kit as these are known to damage MAFs. This appears to be the major cause of engine failure in these models. Not known to particularly affect pre-MY98 & BugEye onwards

Matt P

Bah. Sorry to hear that! Do you use a Knocklink? Could be det or oil starvation as said above, they're the most common causes of failure. Either way, you need to find out what caused it so you can rectify the problem before it destroys your new engine!

While you're ringing around for quotes try Len at subaru4you.co.uk. If you could search on here you'd find loads of good reviews about him!

Good luck.

Andy McCord

i had a head gasket go on a rover 400 (common fault), it was well out of warranty at the time but i wrote to rover asking them in there opinion was this a reasonable fault to occur with a fully dealer serviced car with not many miles on the clock, there reply suprised me, they admitted it was not an expected fault & repaired it free of charge, i would contact IM & ask the same question?, i.e what more could i have done to prevent this problem occuring & in there opinion, is this an expected fault given the cars mileage?, i think you have to force them gently to admit that obviously this shouldnt off happened, of course they can claim that you may off been thrashing the **** of it, but the fact that you have followed the dealer service schedule shows you have good common sense

Good luck
Andy

TopBanana

Andy M, there's a well-known problem with K-series head gaskets, which is probably why they paid up.

flatfourburble

I've been told it's to do with the blots that hold the engine/block together, that they rot through with time regardless off the mileage. My mums Rover 214 is going the same way it's just a matter of time till it gives up the ghost but it's not worth the money repairing it as it would cost more that the car is worth

Andy McCord

Jllang, there appears to be a well known prob with big ends 2

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

Graham @TSL is very particular about the grade of oil he uses - I forget the name but it's a very expensive fully synthetic race spec oil. He was quite adamant that the reason bearings fail is because of poor lubrication. Main dealer servicing certainly wasn't recommended.

Annoyingly I've had several different reactions from the garages I've tried. TSL blamed lubrication and had some interesting comments on the construction of the Subaru oil pump, which they'd replace as a matter of course. Powerstation would simply replace the whole bottom end with an STI unit from a JDM car, replacing the oil pump if necessary. API Engines specialise in rebuilding these engines but rarely replace oil pumps or MAF sensors. Scoobyclinic have yet to get back to me.

Interestingly, nobody mentioned MAF sensors without prompting, and even then I generally got nothing more than an acknowledgement that they could be problematic. It's certainly not something that was mentioned straight away as a probable cause of failure. I'll check and see if it can be easily tested.

I'll be writing to IM shortly.

Thanks for all the votes of sympathy - I do actually remember the thread about MY00's failing in this way, but guessed that as I've got a UK-spec car, unmodified (apart from the PPP) and have followed the servicing instructions to the letter, that I'd be OK. I was wrong, and now I'm upset.

My understanding of the problem with the K-series engine is that it has very long head bolts, which allow a tendency for some lateral movement between block and head. This puts the head gasket under shear stress, which ultimately causes them to fail. This came from a mechanic who maintains Elises for one of the racing circuits - Thruxton IIRC.

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

ps. PTMW: what did you do about getting it repaired? Did you contact IM or Subaru UK?

Re-Bitten Hero

Hi Andy,

It was my thread last December about engines blowing on MY99/00, mainly due to MAF sensor failure. In my case, this happened because of an after-market air filter putting oil vapour on the MAF sensor . I'd post you the link, but it doesn't seem to be on SN3 .

Good luck...
Richard

Steve Whitehorn

iTrader: (13)

Agree
MAF failure is common and causes all sort of problems
Don't run induction kits as they do f*ck the MAF - stick with pannel filters.
Oil is very important obviously. Many different opinions on which is the best one
Upgrade fuel and oil pumps are a very good idea
Also sensors for Det - Exhaust Gas Temp and Oil Presure are a good idea
Good quality fuel

Also a bust water pump can sound very much like a big end failure. Stay clear of dealers and find a very good independent mechanic. E.G. Dave West, Steve Lawson, Graham At GDA, Subaru for you, TSL, etc etc etc