intercooler test
11 December 2009, 09:06 PM
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intercooler test
can anyone help a while ago i found a web site that had some results for testing out various intercoolers for the impreza but i cant seem to find it again if anyone could give me a link to find it that would be great thanks 
12 December 2009, 09:55 AM
#6
If you invest in an air charge temperature guage and monitor air charge on a standard intercooler, STi 8 intercooler and then a Hybrid front mount intercooler you will come to the same conclusion that I and many others have come to. How can you test intercoolers and form a solid opinion if you are not monitoring charge temperatures.
Air charge temperature guages £80 each.
Air charge temperature guages £80 each.
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13 December 2009, 09:09 AM
#8
Steve : To save typing all this out again I have copied a post from a previous thread.
To those of you who have already read it please ignore. I think the main reference was to explain why a Hybrid front mount was a better option than an STi 8 top mount and to point out that stories of increased lag were exaggerated beyond all proportion that they had now become another Scoobynet myth.
So there you have it. An increase in power from 392 to 401 bhp on the first run on the rollers followed by 410 bhp after mapping. An increase of 18 bhp.
No noticable lag.
The Hybrid FMIC kit costs less than the combined cost of the second hand STi 8 TMIC scoop and undertray.
For someone who has done it before with the facilities, similar to ours, fitting an FMIC is an easy days work. Fixed price £185 if we do it. To fit the TMIC properly on the STi 3 Wagon took two full days and part of the third day.
Like I say above, other people are welcome to a contrary view but unless they put the effort in to determine the facts their opinion is just that and not based on careful investigation. I should point out that when I fitted the STi 8 top mount it was on the basis that it would remain on the car throughout its ownership with me and it was only because of my disapppointment I ended up fitting the Hybrid GT FMIC. I will not be fitting an STi 8 TMIC to any car in the future.
__________________
To those of you who have already read it please ignore. I think the main reference was to explain why a Hybrid front mount was a better option than an STi 8 top mount and to point out that stories of increased lag were exaggerated beyond all proportion that they had now become another Scoobynet myth.
Look, we have been through this so often it is tedious. If you have the wherewithall to calculate the increased air volume in an FMIC system over a top mount system and work out the engine air consumption at say 3500 rpm you can see that in percentage terms the additional air is next to nothing. I know that on one of your favourite sites it alleges one third of a second lag per gear change. Sorry but someone's imagination is running away with them IF it is an efficient intercooler set up (and there are a lot out there that are not including some of the big names like APS bar and plate that cannot compete with the Hybrid tube and fin) and providing that it is properly mapped. This is the view of competant mappers such as Bob Rawle, Pat Herbron and Steve Simpson.
I have actually seen cars fitted with aftermarket top mounts that performed worse than with the OE STi 8. Indeed, I think there was a magazine feature that said much the same. (This was the article involving Scooby Clinic)
Because I am interested in determining facts and not Scoobynet myth or hard facts based on careful trials as opposed to opinions THAT ARE CHANGEABLE SUBJECT TO PERSONAL AGENDA, I fitted an STi 8 top mount to P93 DFR STi 3 Wagon.
1. For the top mount to work reasonably well I also needed the STi 8 undertray and STi 8 scoop.
2. Fitting was actually a fairly big job and took the best part of two days with interruptions and a further half day getting bits and tidying up but the installation looked like it was OE. It could have been left rougher without purpose made brackets in less time but I was planning to keep this installation for the life of the car providing it performed satisfactorily)
3. Had we been charging a customer the fitting charge would fairly have been in excess of £300 whereas we fit front mounts for £185. I must stress this installation was done to very high standards and no corners were cut. The same attention to detail as with our Hybrid FMIC installations at our garage.
4. The cost of the installation with the undertray and scoop was far in excess of the cost of one of my Hybrid FMICs before you look at your own installation time or paying someone to do it.
5. At the time the front mount was changed for the STi 8 top mount I also fitted another turbo, HS380 and after mapping on the rolling road we had 372 bhp.
6. Further development took place on the turbo which I intended to be my stable 380-400 bhp turbo (that did not happen because of component supplier inertia) and a few days prior to fitting the Hybrid front mount we had a final mapping session and achieved 392 bhp.I should point out the turbo had been off the car three or four times in the intervening period and there had been numerous rolling road sessions and remapping.
7. The decision to fit a front mount was because from time to time during the Summer my air charge temperature guage was showing figures well into the 50 deg.C area with heat soak, even when cruising ACTs could be 20 plus over ambient and 40 C over ambient when giving it the beans was possible.
8. The TMIC was removed and sold for far more than the cost of a Hybrid FMIC.
9. Fitting the Hybrid FMIC took between 7 and 8 hours with interruptions and the car was put back on the same rolling road.
10. Gingerly we ran the car up to check AFRs and without any adjustments whatsoever the car made 401 bhp. The car was then mapped fairly quickly for a road test and we had 410 bhp prior to minor mapping adjustments on the road.
11. This is a gain of 18 bhp over what we were able to achieve with the STi 8 TMIC.
These are the facts, carefully gathered over a six month development period and I have all the testing equipment necessary to make accurate observations including air charge temperature guages, ambient temperature guages, laser digital thermometer, thermometer guages and an array of Magnahelix flow equipment.
The driving experience did not show up any lag and the car actually achieves 1 bar in 4th on a level road a good 100 rpm earlier than with the TMIC.
In view of the above I conclude that all those advised to fit STi 8 TMICs were badly advised, certainly at this power level and beyond.
Because more air is being moved in an efficient FMIC then obviously there is a small amount of lag, nothing like a third of a second which is a gross exaggeration (which I can explain elsewhere but it will be a long thread.) which is countered by the additional power. The only people needing a top mount intercooler beyond certain power levels are those that concentrate on quarter mile times only. Those that use their car as an every day driver, rolling road queens, track cars and anything going flat out for more than 10-12 seconds should have a front mount intercooler when air charge temperatures exceed an acceptable level.
Now these are the facts and other people are welcome to their opinions but as most of the people with opinions contrary to the above have not even invested in an ACT guage their opinion should be taken with a pinch of salt.
Obviously Tidgy, myself and others can refer back to the above any time some poor deluded soul gives duff information to fellow Subaru owners.
I have actually seen cars fitted with aftermarket top mounts that performed worse than with the OE STi 8. Indeed, I think there was a magazine feature that said much the same. (This was the article involving Scooby Clinic)
Because I am interested in determining facts and not Scoobynet myth or hard facts based on careful trials as opposed to opinions THAT ARE CHANGEABLE SUBJECT TO PERSONAL AGENDA, I fitted an STi 8 top mount to P93 DFR STi 3 Wagon.
1. For the top mount to work reasonably well I also needed the STi 8 undertray and STi 8 scoop.
2. Fitting was actually a fairly big job and took the best part of two days with interruptions and a further half day getting bits and tidying up but the installation looked like it was OE. It could have been left rougher without purpose made brackets in less time but I was planning to keep this installation for the life of the car providing it performed satisfactorily)
3. Had we been charging a customer the fitting charge would fairly have been in excess of £300 whereas we fit front mounts for £185. I must stress this installation was done to very high standards and no corners were cut. The same attention to detail as with our Hybrid FMIC installations at our garage.
4. The cost of the installation with the undertray and scoop was far in excess of the cost of one of my Hybrid FMICs before you look at your own installation time or paying someone to do it.
5. At the time the front mount was changed for the STi 8 top mount I also fitted another turbo, HS380 and after mapping on the rolling road we had 372 bhp.
6. Further development took place on the turbo which I intended to be my stable 380-400 bhp turbo (that did not happen because of component supplier inertia) and a few days prior to fitting the Hybrid front mount we had a final mapping session and achieved 392 bhp.I should point out the turbo had been off the car three or four times in the intervening period and there had been numerous rolling road sessions and remapping.
7. The decision to fit a front mount was because from time to time during the Summer my air charge temperature guage was showing figures well into the 50 deg.C area with heat soak, even when cruising ACTs could be 20 plus over ambient and 40 C over ambient when giving it the beans was possible.
8. The TMIC was removed and sold for far more than the cost of a Hybrid FMIC.
9. Fitting the Hybrid FMIC took between 7 and 8 hours with interruptions and the car was put back on the same rolling road.
10. Gingerly we ran the car up to check AFRs and without any adjustments whatsoever the car made 401 bhp. The car was then mapped fairly quickly for a road test and we had 410 bhp prior to minor mapping adjustments on the road.
11. This is a gain of 18 bhp over what we were able to achieve with the STi 8 TMIC.
These are the facts, carefully gathered over a six month development period and I have all the testing equipment necessary to make accurate observations including air charge temperature guages, ambient temperature guages, laser digital thermometer, thermometer guages and an array of Magnahelix flow equipment.
The driving experience did not show up any lag and the car actually achieves 1 bar in 4th on a level road a good 100 rpm earlier than with the TMIC.
In view of the above I conclude that all those advised to fit STi 8 TMICs were badly advised, certainly at this power level and beyond.
Because more air is being moved in an efficient FMIC then obviously there is a small amount of lag, nothing like a third of a second which is a gross exaggeration (which I can explain elsewhere but it will be a long thread.) which is countered by the additional power. The only people needing a top mount intercooler beyond certain power levels are those that concentrate on quarter mile times only. Those that use their car as an every day driver, rolling road queens, track cars and anything going flat out for more than 10-12 seconds should have a front mount intercooler when air charge temperatures exceed an acceptable level.
Now these are the facts and other people are welcome to their opinions but as most of the people with opinions contrary to the above have not even invested in an ACT guage their opinion should be taken with a pinch of salt.
Obviously Tidgy, myself and others can refer back to the above any time some poor deluded soul gives duff information to fellow Subaru owners.
No noticable lag.
The Hybrid FMIC kit costs less than the combined cost of the second hand STi 8 TMIC scoop and undertray.
For someone who has done it before with the facilities, similar to ours, fitting an FMIC is an easy days work. Fixed price £185 if we do it. To fit the TMIC properly on the STi 3 Wagon took two full days and part of the third day.
Like I say above, other people are welcome to a contrary view but unless they put the effort in to determine the facts their opinion is just that and not based on careful investigation. I should point out that when I fitted the STi 8 top mount it was on the basis that it would remain on the car throughout its ownership with me and it was only because of my disapppointment I ended up fitting the Hybrid GT FMIC. I will not be fitting an STi 8 TMIC to any car in the future.
__________________
13 December 2009, 01:03 PM
#9
It's worth noting that the fitment quoted above of the TMIC is for MY93-96 cars. Other models are much easier. On my own MY99 fitting a STi8 TMIC is far easier than fitting a FMIC.
ACTs aren't the be all and end all of everything. There is no doubt that a intercooler placed at the front of a car will have colder ACTs than one fitted to the top of the car fed by a bonnet scoop.
Both TMICs and FMICs have their advantages and disadvantages. What is best for someone will depend on the cars MY, usage, and power goals.
The views of one of the most respected mappers around who has no vested interest: AndyForrestPerformance
Anyone that is interested in a FMIC should call me on 01462 488244 for a balanced opinion. Have turned away a number of FMIC customers and advised they would be better off with a STi8 TMIC.
ACTs aren't the be all and end all of everything. There is no doubt that a intercooler placed at the front of a car will have colder ACTs than one fitted to the top of the car fed by a bonnet scoop.
Both TMICs and FMICs have their advantages and disadvantages. What is best for someone will depend on the cars MY, usage, and power goals.
The views of one of the most respected mappers around who has no vested interest: AndyForrestPerformance
Anyone that is interested in a FMIC should call me on 01462 488244 for a balanced opinion. Have turned away a number of FMIC customers and advised they would be better off with a STi8 TMIC.
13 December 2009, 02:08 PM
#10
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They may not be everything Bob, but they are very important, especially when your management system removes ignition based on them. I too have seen increases of 20+bhp soley based on an intercooler swap from a topmount to a highly effecient front mount.
One of my good friends competes in a Historic Saloon Championship in a pre 93 Sierra Cosworth. The regs state that you have to retain the stock intercooler and run a 34mm restrictor. The gradual build up of heat during the race, combined with a safe ACT based ignition strategy means that he loses approx 20hp during the course of the race due to 60+ degree charge temps.
Water injection and water spray systems can help, but an effecient intercooler is far batter IMHO.
13 December 2009, 07:19 PM
#11
It's worth noting that the fitment quoted above of the TMIC is for MY93-96 cars. Other models are much easier. On my own MY99 fitting a STi8 TMIC is far easier than fitting a FMIC.
ACTs aren't the be all and end all of everything.
How many Time Attack cars ran top mounts?
Why does the Gob Stopper and all the high powered RCMS cars have front mounts?
An air charge temperature guage is only £80, small neat and attractive. If you have any doubts about the need for a front mount on a modified engine invest in an ACT guage. Because of the detailed work I have already done over a number of years I know from the experience gained at what point various cars will benefit from a front mount.
Anyone that is interested in a FMIC should call me on 01462 488244 for a balanced opinion. Have turned away a number of FMIC customers and advised they would be better off with a STi8 TMIC.
Why do some of your customers find it necessary to come to me for technical advice ?
I am simply sharing information that has taken a lot of time and effort to gather, check,double check and refine. Beyond a certain point the OE Subaru top mount is inefficient and there are clear gains to be had from a front mount. The other thing to note is that as speed increases on the Classic the bonnet scoop flows less air as the air flow is not directly in to the scoop so at the very time when you are producing most power, particularly on a Classic you have the least efficient air flow across the TMIC as speed increases.
In the last ten days three different mappers have referred their customers to me because of air charge temperature issues and clearly they have concluded that front mounts are the way to go and clearly they rely on my technical competence and knowledge.
I have no connection with Engine Tuner or Martyn Jeffries but I know they do a fair bit of modifying, engine building and a lot of mapping and that they have their own rolling road. Clearly they have come to the same conclusions as me.
Hybrid European and UK Authorised Distributor. Pro Installer and Technical Adviser.
13 December 2009, 07:49 PM
#12
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Scoobjam, what car do you have exactly? 
I think what should be said here is that on a classic the tmic is less efficient than that on say a new age STI, and a FMIC is a "better" option far earlier in tuning than a TMIC, where as you will always benefit more from a FMIC if your chasing figures on any scoob rather than just wanting some nice modifications
Tony
I think what should be said here is that on a classic the tmic is less efficient than that on say a new age STI, and a FMIC is a "better" option far earlier in tuning than a TMIC, where as you will always benefit more from a FMIC if your chasing figures on any scoob rather than just wanting some nice modifications
Tony
13 December 2009, 07:52 PM
#13
On a non-slanty year car a STi8 TMIC takes only a matter of a few hours, far quicker than a FMIC.
I won't address the rest of the waffle as it will only turn into the usual, which you seem intent on doing at every given opportunity.
The 3 hours was a typo, but I will correct it.
If someone wants a balanced viewpoint, they know where to come
I'll refrain from saying anymore.
(MY99 340bhp UK Turbo, TD05-16g + STi8 TMIC 0-119mph in 11.7seconds, bigger build underway for 2010 using a Aztec Performance supplied Hybrid GT2 FMIC)
Last edited by Aztec Performance Ltd; 13 December 2009 at 07:53 PM.
13 December 2009, 08:27 PM
#15
Weren't you doing the advertising for someone on here in return for lower product costs not too long ago People who call us for a viewpoint won't be shoved into a FMIC sale, indeed, have turned many people away and told them to get a STi TMIC instead. Not many suppliers would do that
13 December 2009, 10:38 PM
#16
harvey thanks very much for the detailed advice and proof with testing etc and not just a line or two of text it makes a pleasent change. and sorry for getting you into a bum fight lol.
kind regards
steve
kind regards
steve
......NOT
14 December 2009, 10:12 AM
#18
Quote:
It's worth noting that the fitment quoted above of the TMIC is for MY93-96 cars. Other models are much easier. On my own MY99 fitting a STi8 TMIC is far easier than fitting a FMIC.
Bob : Please get your facts correct. You are talking a load of crap AGAIN. We are not referring to a 93-96 car. If you want to come on and contest what I say get it right.
It's worth noting that the fitment quoted above of the TMIC is for MY93-96 cars. Other models are much easier. On my own MY99 fitting a STi8 TMIC is far easier than fitting a FMIC.
Bob : Please get your facts correct. You are talking a load of crap AGAIN. We are not referring to a 93-96 car. If you want to come on and contest what I say get it right.
Tut, tut. Such poor language.
You then come out with more crap as if you were an authority on the matter which clearly you are not :
On a non-slanty year car a STi8 TMIC takes only a matter of a few hours, far quicker than a FMIC.
If you had done this before you would know that fitting an STi 8 TMIC to an MY97-98 is more difficult than fitting to a 99-00 and fitting to a New Age is not particularly difficult anyway.
You try to display yourself as some font of knowledge but in reality you are sadly lacking and I guess that is why some of your customers come to me for advice on how to fit front mounts and then come back for advice on other matters. For them to come back for advice on other matters suggests they were very happy with the advice on front mounts. Have you ever fitted a Hybrid Front Mount because from the outside it looks like you havn't got a clue and clearly you have never fitted an STi 8 top mount to a version 3 or 4 car.
I won't address the rest of the waffle as it will only turn into the usual, which you seem intent on doing at every given opportunity.
Cheers Steve. I am glad the information was of assistance. No apology necessary. I simply tell it like it is.
14 December 2009, 10:28 AM
#19
I feel a little bad mate as it has appeared to of got you in a bum fight with bob and that was not my intension. you have given me helpful and honest advice in the past as you have clearly imo taken the time out to test some if not all of the items that you sell and FIT not just an internet sales. so again thanks, and all the best with the workshop as its nice to get a trial and error opinion and not just a sale on goods that you will make the most profit on.
kind regards
kind regards
14 December 2009, 10:33 AM
#20
14 December 2009, 01:25 PM
#21
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thanks for that i learnt alot about my car that i didnt know about.
lol i thought id have to change soooo much to get my car to a decent HP
looks like alot of it on my MY00 Turbo 2000 can stay and just change a few bits here and there.
14 December 2009, 01:27 PM
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A top mount is always in the wrong place. They suffer from heat soak as any Subaru tuner will tell you. The argument of " lag " over safety is always dependent upon what you use the car for. If this is a road car that gets the occasional beating it is likley that you will get by with a bigger top mount.
BUT, the moment you sit still for any length of time the intercooler gets hot and the next 1/2 mile you drive will be the most dangerous in terms of intake air temps.
Peace of mind for MOST circumstances is front mount every time. There is no persuasive argument to keep a top mount, that will ever overcome the heat soak risk.
David APi
BUT, the moment you sit still for any length of time the intercooler gets hot and the next 1/2 mile you drive will be the most dangerous in terms of intake air temps.
Peace of mind for MOST circumstances is front mount every time. There is no persuasive argument to keep a top mount, that will ever overcome the heat soak risk.
David APi
14 December 2009, 01:32 PM
#23
Scooby Regular
lmao, don't believe all you read on that site lol
depending on how much you call decent power. the higher figures he quotes on his site im yet to find a tuner who actualy does the work who recomend pushing that far without a rebuild.
330-340 is easily achieveable on a my00, where mine is, but your pushing it and unless you put supporting mods on it wont last very long, biggest killer is oil temps and you'll be up there pushign that sort of power.
depending on how much you call decent power. the higher figures he quotes on his site im yet to find a tuner who actualy does the work who recomend pushing that far without a rebuild.
330-340 is easily achieveable on a my00, where mine is, but your pushing it and unless you put supporting mods on it wont last very long, biggest killer is oil temps and you'll be up there pushign that sort of power.
14 December 2009, 01:57 PM
#25
A top mount is always in the wrong place. They suffer from heat soak as any Subaru tuner will tell you. The argument of " lag " over safety is always dependent upon what you use the car for. If this is a road car that gets the occasional beating it is likley that you will get by with a bigger top mount.
BUT, the moment you sit still for any length of time the intercooler gets hot and the next 1/2 mile you drive will be the most dangerous in terms of intake air temps.
Peace of mind for MOST circumstances is front mount every time. There is no persuasive argument to keep a top mount, that will ever overcome the heat soak risk.
David APi
BUT, the moment you sit still for any length of time the intercooler gets hot and the next 1/2 mile you drive will be the most dangerous in terms of intake air temps.
Peace of mind for MOST circumstances is front mount every time. There is no persuasive argument to keep a top mount, that will ever overcome the heat soak risk.
David APi
I had just run up the A28 in France at silly speeds including a spirited "play" with a Celica GT4,
in air temperatures of 40+ degrees, and came to the peage, or tolls, at the A16 near Abbeville, where I queued for a minute or so, still in full sun.On driving away from said peage, the knocklink lit up like a Christmas tree and the car was knocking before I got my foot off: damage done.
The car would probably have gone to David, who is another utterly honest, selfless guy, and who gave me loads of free advice over the phone, no strings attached, but he is double the distance from me that Harvey is.
BOB: please don't judge everyone by your own standards. Harvey is NOT doing me any lower costs, he is keeping costs down by doing a non-distressed repair. It gets done when he has the time, not to my timetable, which allows him to source any bits at best price, rather than instant price. He can keep the car as long as it takes.
Hence, since he is doing ME a favour, I responded in kind
Oh, and I was impressed with the high-tech fitting of YOUR TMIC, layers of insulation foam stuck together, wasn't it?
14 December 2009, 02:00 PM
#26
Cold air is good.
Fit an ACT gauge before deciding whether changing the intercooler would be good. (it will shock you how hot the air going into the engine is on a std TMIC - even the very good STi TMICs)
Then fit a good FMIC and measure it - HUGE difference.
Fit an ebay special and don't be surprised if the charge temps are virtually the same as with the TMIC.
You can't judge an improvement without the facts.
Fit an ACT gauge before deciding whether changing the intercooler would be good. (it will shock you how hot the air going into the engine is on a std TMIC - even the very good STi TMICs)
Then fit a good FMIC and measure it - HUGE difference.
Fit an ebay special and don't be surprised if the charge temps are virtually the same as with the TMIC.
You can't judge an improvement without the facts.
14 December 2009, 02:25 PM
#29
No probs, he'll be on in a mo to go off at a tangent again
Or I'll get either a threatening, or a matey PM, telling/asking me to stop.
14 December 2009, 02:40 PM
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lmao, don't believe all you read on that site lol
depending on how much you call decent power. the higher figures he quotes on his site im yet to find a tuner who actualy does the work who recomend pushing that far without a rebuild.
330-340 is easily achieveable on a my00, where mine is, but your pushing it and unless you put supporting mods on it wont last very long, biggest killer is oil temps and you'll be up there pushign that sort of power.
depending on how much you call decent power. the higher figures he quotes on his site im yet to find a tuner who actualy does the work who recomend pushing that far without a rebuild.
330-340 is easily achieveable on a my00, where mine is, but your pushing it and unless you put supporting mods on it wont last very long, biggest killer is oil temps and you'll be up there pushign that sort of power.