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Location: Ordained By Gods, Powered by the Devil!! 2.1 with S206 and pulls like a train!! 475bhp and rising!!
Posts: 2,737
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon Fodder
Great minds think alike again.
Yes they do!!
Well, I've got it narrowed down to the 2.1 or 2.5!! I'm setting myself a budget (sort of) Will probably be running an MD555 or 321T with the setup!! Fingers are crossed for 450/420ish
I'll have my STi TMIC, 550s and 20g for sale soon tho
__________________
If at first you don't succeed- Base Jumping is NOT for you!!
Well, I've got it narrowed down to the 2.1 or 2.5!! I'm setting myself a budget (sort of) Will probably be running an MD555 or 321T with the setup!! Fingers are crossed for 450/420ish
I'll have my STi TMIC, 550s and 20g for sale soon tho
I am on the lookout for a 20g, it didn't suffer when your engine detonated? Let me know and I am sure we can come to a deal.
Location: Ordained By Gods, Powered by the Devil!! 2.1 with S206 and pulls like a train!! 475bhp and rising!!
Posts: 2,737
No worries I don't think it did any damage, I'll get whoever does my car to check it over as I'll have to run it in on that before I change the turbo and have it mapped!!
__________________
If at first you don't succeed- Base Jumping is NOT for you!!
No problem, that is one less thing now that I need to worry about.
I am not in a rush as I already have the 650cc flow matched injectors and it will be the end of the summer before I need the turbocharger and then up to Bob Rawle for another remap.
The only problem with stroked engines such as the 2.1 using a 79mm crank is when the standard length rod is used the piston pertrudes from the deck by 2mm. So some engine builders use shorter rods to solve this, but by reducing the rod length this has a negative effect by increasing piston side loading and crank torsionals. The piston side loading causes friction which reduces the engines performance, reliability and longevity. So in order to build any engine effectively the rod length to stroke ratio has to be greater than 1.6 and nearer 1.8 is even better. The shorter the rod is in relation to the stroke, the greater the angularity it goes through. The negative consequence of this is that the piston experiences greater side loading as it approaches its maximum angularity. A longer stroke crank is more prone to the negative effects of torsional vibrations. So stroker crankshafts are usually made from stronger materials to increase stiffness in order to decrease crankshaft vibration which can lead the premature failure or bearing damage.
So when building a stroker engine some specially made pistons should be used. Of which are shorter in depth to enable the correct length rod to be used to ensure the rod/stoke ratio is correct. Roger Clark Motorsports Gobstopper is built using a 2 litre closed deck block with +1mm oversized length rods with a 75mm stroke crank to further reduce piston side loading and increase reliability. Lateral performance can also supply stroker pistons.
__________________
Why is scoobynet so flipping slow?
Last edited by bluerigster; 31 August 2009 at 02:48.
Location: Ordained By Gods, Powered by the Devil!! 2.1 with S206 and pulls like a train!! 475bhp and rising!!
Posts: 2,737
Thanks for that Do you know if they use the shorter pistons in the 2.1?? If I'm gonna spend £**** on a new engine I'm gonna want the thing to be stronger than my 2.0!! I'll probably be doing a few trackdays but want a nice fast road car!!
__________________
If at first you don't succeed- Base Jumping is NOT for you!!
The only problem with stroked engines such as the 2.1 using a 79mm crank is when the standard length rod is used the piston pertrudes from the deck by 2mm. So some engine builders use shorter rods to solve this, but by reducing the rod length this has a negative effect by increasing piston side loading and crank torsionals. The piston side loading causes friction which reduces the engines performance, reliability and longevity. So in order to build any engine effectively the rod length to stroke ratio has to be less than 1.6. The shorter the rod is in relation to the stroke, the greater the angularity it goes through. The negative consequence of this is that the piston experiences greater side loading as it approaches its maximum angularity. A longer stroke crank is more prone to the negative effects of torsional vibrations. So stroker crankshafts are usually made from stronger materials to increase stiffness in order to decrease crankshaft vibration which can lead the premature failure or bearing damage.
So when building a stroker engine some specially made pistons should be used. Of which are shorter in depth to enable the correct length rod to be used to ensure the rod/stoke ratio is correct. Roger Clark Motorsports Gobstopper is built using a 2 litre closed deck block with +1mm oversized length rods with a 75mm stroke crank to further reduce piston side loading and increase reliability. Lateral performance can also supply stroker pistons.
What he said!
__________________ Dragoons were originally infantrymen deployed by horse, but later became cavalry. They were therefore trained in horse riding as well as infantry fighting skills. Dragoon regiments were established in most European armies during the late 17th and early 18th centuries. Originally dragoons were considered as separate from Regular Cavalry, but during the 18th century they evolved into conventional mounted troops trained to fight from horseback.
Thanks for that Do you know if they use the shorter pistons in the 2.1?? If I'm gonna spend £**** on a new engine I'm gonna want the thing to be stronger than my 2.0!! I'll probably be doing a few trackdays but want a nice fast road car!!
I know Mark (Lateral Performance) builds both of his stroked 2 & 2.2 litre closed deck blocks using stroker pistons to allow the correct length rods to be used. He also supplies rods designed to improve oiling to small end bearings which the standard rods fail to deliver.
__________________
Why is scoobynet so flipping slow?
Wow... didn't realize anyone used anything less than a 2.5L motor for an upgrade anymore.
Our generic 2.5L S3L withstands 678 bhp while being flogged to death by Ken Block in his Gymkhana car. At the exchange rate, that is a good amount of reliable power for the money spent.
Location: Ordained By Gods, Powered by the Devil!! 2.1 with S206 and pulls like a train!! 475bhp and rising!!
Posts: 2,737
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford Performance
Wow... didn't realize anyone used anything less than a 2.5L motor for an upgrade anymore.
Our generic 2.5L S3L withstands 678 bhp while being flogged to death by Ken Block in his Gymkhana car. At the exchange rate, that is a good amount of reliable power for the money spent.
I'll be the first UK tester if you like
__________________
If at first you don't succeed- Base Jumping is NOT for you!!
Wow... didn't realize anyone used anything less than a 2.5L motor for an upgrade anymore.
Our generic 2.5L S3L withstands 678 bhp while being flogged to death by Ken Block in his Gymkhana car. At the exchange rate, that is a good amount of reliable power for the money spent.
What size turbo and boost pressure is needed to acheive 678 bhp and is this on a standard cylinder liners?. As most tuners in the UK quote 500bhp (flywheel) as the maximum safe output of a standard EJ257 block cylinder liners, flexing under high boost has caused many EJ257 blocks to fail with cracked or scored cylinder liners. So it's common in the UK for most high powered >500 bhp semi closed deck EJ257 blocks to be modified to run heavy duty ductile iron flanged liners to avoid such failures. What engine and power output does the Crawford Performance Time Attack car run?.
__________________
Why is scoobynet so flipping slow?
Last edited by bluerigster; 04 July 2009 at 21:01.
What size turbo and boost pressure is needed to acheive 678 bhp and is this on a standard cylinder liners?. As most tuners in the UK quote 500bhp (flywheel) as the maximum safe output of a standard EJ257 block cylinder liners, flexing under high boost has caused many EJ257 blocks to fail with cranked or scored cylinder liners. So it's common in the UK for most high powered >500 bhp semi closed deck EJ257 blocks to be modified to run heavy duty ductile iron flanged liners to avoid such failures. What engine and power output does the Crawford Performance Time Attack car run?.
Well… the turbo size and boost pressure needed is a simple mathematical formula, “to start with”. There are many turbos on the market that will produce that amount of power and more. Choosing the correct turbo for your particular application can take a few attempts before you hit on what works with the rest of your components.
In the past we have built different configurations of blocks for our High HP motors but for the last three years we have only used the stock EJ257 blocks for our motor builds. That said, we have seen plenty of broken liners… The fact of the matter is the broken liner is the result of another problem within the package. When our motor is pissed off and we continue to push it, it will break parts regardless of where they came from.
There are many shops in the US, including Crawford, that make 540bhp (flywheel) with a 100% stock EJ257 motor. Years ago we ran our time attack car for a full season with that configuration, at that time there was little competition so there was no need to spend more money on the motor.
The current engine in our TA car is our 2.65L stroker motor that uses a stock block. On our Dynapack dyno it makes 600whp or 720bhp, but in the latest video from our last race, we turned up the boost by another 6 lbs to give us the extra power needed to set the track record. http://www.crawfordperformance.com/videos/browse?movieid=114
Most engine builders want to change every part in the motor because they know better than the team of engineers who originally designed it. At Crawford, we only upgrade the parts that break during testing and leave the rest alone, why fix it if it’s not broken? That concept makes for a simple and relatively inexpensive motor that is easy to rebuild when the time comes. It’s not a great business practice though as all the extra crap sold to the end user puts money in the shops bank account
Location: knocking on the door of 400bhp with v power smashed through it with e85
Posts: 1,080
[Crawford engineering
Most engine builders want to change every part in the motor because they know better than the team of engineers who originally designed it. At Crawford, we only upgrade the parts that break during testing and leave the rest alone, why fix it if it’s not broken? That concept makes for a simple and relatively inexpensive motor that is easy to rebuild when the time comes. It’s not a great business practice though as all the extra crap sold to the end user puts money in the shops bank account [/quote]
Ever thought of setting up over here I'd be your first customer
Well… the turbo size and boost pressure needed is a simple mathematical formula, “to start with”. There are many turbos on the market that will produce that amount of power and more. Choosing the correct turbo for your particular application can take a few attempts before you hit on what works with the rest of your components.
In the past we have built different configurations of blocks for our High HP motors but for the last three years we have only used the stock EJ257 blocks for our motor builds. That said, we have seen plenty of broken liners… The fact of the matter is the broken liner is the result of another problem within the package. When our motor is pissed off and we continue to push it, it will break parts regardless of where they came from.
There are many shops in the US, including Crawford, that make 540bhp (flywheel) with a 100% stock EJ257 motor. Years ago we ran our time attack car for a full season with that configuration, at that time there was little competition so there was no need to spend more money on the motor.
The current engine in our TA car is our 2.65L stroker motor that uses a stock block. On our Dynapack dyno it makes 600whp or 720bhp, but in the latest video from our last race, we turned up the boost by another 6 lbs to give us the extra power needed to set the track record. http://www.crawfordperformance.com/videos/browse?movieid=114
Most engine builders want to change every part in the motor because they know better than the team of engineers who originally designed it. At Crawford, we only upgrade the parts that break during testing and leave the rest alone, why fix it if it’s not broken? That concept makes for a simple and relatively inexpensive motor that is easy to rebuild when the time comes. It’s not a great business practice though as all the extra crap sold to the end user puts money in the shops bank account
Have you found the problem with EJ257 cylinder liners cracking is more to do with running the incorrect cylinder head specifications when running a large turbo?. It's quite common in the UK for EJ257 blocks to run big turbo's on stock cylinder heads designed for the smaller 2 litre. Is the RPM limit on your time attack car set to 7000 rpm or is Tarzan short shifting?. As the power band seems relatively short for a track car!. Also how much torque is the engine making?.
__________________
Why is scoobynet so flipping slow?
Last edited by bluerigster; 04 July 2009 at 19:13.
Have you found the problem with EJ257 cylinder liners cracking is more to do with running the incorrect cylinder head specifications when running a large turbo?. It's quite common in the UK for EJ257 blocks to run big turbo's on stock cylinder heads designed for the smaller 2 litre. Is the RPM limit on your time attack car set to 7000 rpm or is Tarzan short shifting?. As the power band seems relatively short for a track car!. Also how much torque is the engine making?.
The cylinders get tortured by a massive spike in cylinder pressure. You will also see the small end of the rod, wrist pins and the pistons take a beating as well. The pressure spike is usually caused by a loss of control of the combustion event. There are many causes of this which can be found anywhere under the hood of the car or just within the tuning of the ECU. We broke a lot of parts during our education on how to keep our race car alive long enough to reach the checkered flag
The only real issue with your 2L head is the small volume of the combustion chamber. If this is not taken into account while designing the pistons, then you will end up with a motor that is designed to fail. That said, the failure cannot be blamed on the cylinder head.
Our TA car makes peak power at 7400 rpm, Tarzan will always do what it takes to not “use-up” the car and short shifting is one of those ways. If you look at our lap times on any given race weekend, you will see that our car is always faster the last few sessions when it counts.
Interesting that you bring up the torque… please entertain us and toss out a guess
Most engine builders want to change every part in the motor because they know better than the team of engineers who originally designed it. At Crawford, we only upgrade the parts that break during testing and leave the rest alone, why fix it if it’s not broken? That concept makes for a simple and relatively inexpensive motor that is easy to rebuild when the time comes. It’s not a great business practice though as all the extra crap sold to the end user puts money in the shops bank account
Ever thought of setting up over here I'd be your first customer[/quote]
We would love to have a good dealer on your side of the pond The problem so far is the ones that have attempted it want to be somebody as opposed to make money.
Ego can be an evil thing when it comes to running a profitable business
The cylinders get tortured by a massive spike in cylinder pressure. You will also see the small end of the rod, wrist pins and the pistons take a beating as well. The pressure spike is usually caused by a loss of control of the combustion event. There are many causes of this which can be found anywhere under the hood of the car or just within the tuning of the ECU. We broke a lot of parts during our education on how to keep our race car alive long enough to reach the checkered flag
The only real issue with your 2L head is the small volume of the combustion chamber. If this is not taken into account while designing the pistons, then you will end up with a motor that is designed to fail. That said, the failure cannot be blamed on the cylinder head.
Our TA car makes peak power at 7400 rpm, Tarzan will always do what it takes to not “use-up” the car and short shifting is one of those ways. If you look at our lap times on any given race weekend, you will see that our car is always faster the last few sessions when it counts.
Interesting that you bring up the torque… please entertain us and toss out a guess
Hint; its quite high
I'd guess 600 Ib/ft of torque.
What type of piston design do you use in your time attack car?. Do you use a mirror match piston to cylinder head squish area's or smaller dish pistons to increase burn rates. Have you increased the compression ratio to help increase burn rates to reduce the chances of pressure spiking or preignition/detonation?.
__________________
Why is scoobynet so flipping slow?
Last edited by bluerigster; 05 July 2009 at 00:17.
What type of piston design do you use in your time attack car?. Do you use a mirror match piston to cylinder head squish area or smaller dish piston to increase burn rates. Have you increased the compression ratio to help increase burn rates to reduce the chances of pressure spiking or preignition/detonation?.
Nice guess and close for a 2.2 / 2.3L style motor.... The 2.65L stroker motor in our TA car makes 700 lb/ft at the crankshaft. That’s one of the reasons it's Tarzans favorite ride at the moment.
On the piston design, yes, we have done / tried all of that. We now use different forgings and dish designs for different uses. Our best pistons to date are custom billet ones designed for our use with the R/D done in our TA car. We will soon have a forging based off the billets we have been testing
Nice guess and close for a 2.2 / 2.3L style motor.... The 2.65L stroker motor in our TA car makes 700 lb/ft at the crankshaft. That’s one of the reasons it's Tarzans favorite ride at the moment.
On the piston design, yes, we have done / tried all of that. We now use different forgings and dish designs for different uses. Our best pistons to date are custom billet ones designed for our use with the R/D done in our TA car. We will soon have a forging based off the billets we have been testing
700 Ib/ft I bet you go through a few clutches!.
It would be nice to see a time attack event with all the best cars competing in one race against the clock. I believe this was an idea Andy Barns proposed and was due to take place at Brands Hatch in the UK this September, before being postponed due to the credit crunch!. Were you aware of such an idea to invite all the best TA cars to compete in a world time attack event to the UK?.
The pistons should be a good seller with the amount of R&D input. Especially this side of the pond.
__________________
Why is scoobynet so flipping slow?
Last edited by bluerigster; 04 July 2009 at 23:33.
LOL! We use an Exedy tipple carbon that actually holds up quite well, still slips but hooks up when it gets hot. When we went from 600 to 700 lb/ft, we started carrying the inside front tire around corners.
The torque takes its biggest toll on the driver though.
Spoke with Andy about that event last year and was looking forward to it...
How shall we market the billet pistons to your side of the pond?
FAO MERVIL
Sounds like a bloody good buy 
That is some list!! I'd love that spec in mine!!! Wonder how much the fitting would be 
and it will be the end of the summer before I need the turbocharger and then up to Bob Rawle for another remap. 
The problem so far is the ones that have attempted it want to be somebody as opposed to make money. 
